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Post by Bailey on Sept 20, 2018 4:50:24 GMT
This is an extract of a post I saw in another thread.
I posted a short reply in the thread, but since it was off-topic, I thought I would elaborate a little more in a dedicated thread for anyone interested in matching screen display to printer outputs. That is not my experience regarding printers and prints. A common question asked by people new to printing is "Why are my prints so dark?". To have any chance, unless one is happy to rely on pure luck, to get an extremely close match between what you see on your screen and a print one must have a properly calibrated monitor and an appropriate printer profile for the printer, ink, paper combination one is using to make the print. In simple terms, a printer does not know if it is using original manufacturer inks or some 3rd party ink, and whether you are using a gloss, semi-gloss, matte or other type of paper. It also doesn't know if you are using the printer manufacturer's paper or paper from a 3rd party which will have different properties.
It needs to be told via your printer driver settings and a printer profile for the printer, ink, paper combination as mentioned above. The amount of ink required of each printer colour to print the rgb colour of a pixel correctly will vary for each paper type. If the proper printer profile is not used then the printer will make assumptions according to the current or default settings you have in place. These assumptions will most often result in less than ultimate print outputs.
I use SpyderStudio from Datacolor to calibrate my monitor and create my own custom printer profiles. My print outputs are a very, very close match to what I see on my screen. There are many other options as well to properly calibrate monitors and create custom printer profiles if anyone is keen to get very close matches between the screen display and print output.
Hope this helps someone 
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Post by whippet on Sept 21, 2018 15:32:38 GMT
That is very interesting, Bailey.
I do not do much printing - mostly text.
A friend told me that compatible inks do not last as long as manufacturers.
So I changed over.
Apart from costing a lot more money, I haven't noticed any difference in quality.
The compatibles can't cause printer damage - can they?
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Post by BuckSkin on Sept 21, 2018 19:23:12 GMT
That is very interesting, Bailey. I do not do much printing - mostly text. A friend told me that compatible inks do not last as long as manufacturers. So I changed over. Apart from costing a lot more money, I haven't noticed any difference in quality. The compatibles can't cause printer damage - can they? If by compatibles you are meaning bulk ink or generic cartridges, then NO, it will not hurt your printer. As for longevity, there is no reason why quality bulk ink should not last as long as the manufacturer's over-priced stuff. So-called "manufacturer's brand ink" is the biggest rip-off going. Printer manufacturers work day and night trying to stay ahead of the generic ink sellers and refillable cartridges. When I shop for a printer, before I look at any other qualification, I want to know if it will accept refillable ink cartridges; if it will not, then no matter how otherwise wonderful the machine may be, it is out of my list of candidates. Quite some time ago, I started using refillable cartridges and buy my ink in big plastic bottles; I can buy six big bottles of ink, enough to last me for years, for less than a single manufacturer's cartridge. Plus, when I fill one of my cartridges, I fill it full; the manufacturer's name-brand cartridges barely wet the bottom of the cartridge. A few of our printers are so old that refillable cartridges are not available; on those, I squirt the re-fill ink through the vent --- usually hidden behind the decal. On more recent printers, it is very important that you do not accept any firmware "updates"; usually, these updates have nothing of benefit to you as the owner, but have some new way to refuse anything but a brand-new name-brand cartridge. Once the refillable cartridge people find out about the new firmware update, then they go to work in finding a way around it in their next generation of cartridges; it is a never ending game. |
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Post by Bailey on Sept 21, 2018 23:46:38 GMT
That is very interesting, Bailey. I do not do much printing - mostly text. A friend told me that compatible inks do not last as long as manufacturers. So I changed over. Apart from costing a lot more money, I haven't noticed any difference in quality. The compatibles can't cause printer damage - can they?
Hi whippet,
I have read and heard about generic ink brands causing damage to printers and/or producing poor print quality. But I don't have any statistics to show how likely generic ink brands will cause any issues.
I always use Epson inks on my 2 Epson printers. The SC P600 uses pigment based ink and the Workforce 435 uses dye based inks. There is no way I would ever tell anyone to definitely not use original manufacturer's inks, especially during the warranty period of the printer.
Whether someone chooses to use manufacturer or generic inks I would think mostly boils down to price and the quality and longevity of prints. I am comfortable paying extra for manufacturer inks. For me personally, I see the extra cost as a cheap insurance premium for a much less chance of problems with my printers and print quality.
If matching what you see on a screen to a printer output in terms of colours and brightness is important then without doubt you will need a custom printer profile when using generic inks. If you use manufacturer inks then the printer profiles available from most printer manufacturers' web sites provide really good results as well, as long as you use the appropriate manufacturer paper for that profile.
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Post by Bailey on Sept 21, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
Hi buckskin ... On more recent printers, it is very important that you do not accept any firmware "updates"; usually, these updates have nothing of benefit to you as the owner, but have some new way to refuse anything but a brand-new name-brand cartridge. Once the refillable cartridge people find out about the new firmware update, then they go to work in finding a way around it in their next generation of cartridges; it is a never ending game. I totally disagree.
I always accept firmware updates on both my Epson SC P600 and Workforce 435 printers. It's just part of my routine maintenance and servicing, just like I do for my car. So far, I have never had any issues with either of my printers regarding functioning and print quality. What you imply in your comment is simply not true because I still have the option to use generic inks if I choose, but in no way will for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post in this thread. |
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Post by Sydney on Sept 22, 2018 0:08:51 GMT
This is a good topic Bailey. As my printer is getting a bit long in the tooth I decided there was no harm in trying generic inks and switched over about 2 years ago. I have been pleasantly surprised with how good images look. I was just looking at some of my A4 prints which I printed out about 2 years ago and they still look quite good with no appearance of fading. Re: the printer, it is still ticking quite nicely and I have not had any problems with it since I started using the generics.
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Post by Bailey on Sept 22, 2018 5:29:08 GMT
No problem Sydney
You didn't mention if your printer uses dye or pigment inks.
Prints made from dye inks can last quite a few years before starting to fade if they have no or little exposure to sunlight. Anecdotally, dye inks are probably also less likely to cause printer issues.
On the hand, pigment inks use solid particles for the colourant. Given the same conditions, prints from pigment inks will outlast prints from dye inks by a very long time before beginning to fade. Also, I would expect non printer manufacturer pigment inks to be much more likely to cause issues with the printer/prints because of the variability in the pigments' properties (size, quality etc).
So whether someone calibrates their monitor and uses appropriate printer profiles depends on how close a match (colours and brightness) between monitor display and printer output they are aiming for.
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Post by Andy on Sept 22, 2018 12:35:13 GMT
I've not made the jump into generic inks, for much the same reasons as Bailey mentions in his earlier post. I have no data to support my belief - I'm simply not willing to take the change on the prints degrading or the printer having issues.
I also also take the firmware updates. My Canon Pro-100 (my main photo printer) rarely has them. My Epson all-in-one gets them rather frequently. I've never had issues.
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Post by Tpgettys on Sept 23, 2018 4:59:30 GMT
Most of the time the only updates I get for my Epson are for the fax component, which I don't use, but accept just so I don't get nagged about it, but yeah, I accept all updates.
The important issue is about the inks however. I used to refill my own cartridges (Canon at that time), but after a year or two passed the images started to fad. It was way good enough for trial prints, but I didn't want to have to swap out cartridges when I wanted a long lasting print. I am confident that the quality of the ink matters, and that I was dealing with second rate quality inks. It is possible that good quality ink is available, but I just don't want to fool with that anymore.
It is pretty shameful how much name-brand printer cartridges cost (~$6000 per gallon!), so the pressure to find an alternative is real enough. As a result, I have turned to printing via Costco; their cost is way below what I can achieve at home, and the quality of both paper (archival) and ink (pigment) is above.
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Post by BuckSkin on Sept 23, 2018 7:09:02 GMT
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Post by Bailey on Sept 23, 2018 7:28:56 GMT
no problem buckskin
Many other people also use generic inks and are happy with them. But I have heard and read about too many occasions where people have had problems with the printers and/or print quality after having used generic ink for me to be comfortable using them.
For me it's just not worth the risk for the relatively small saving.
I would imagine one way unscrupulous generic ink manufacturers cut costs is to use inferior materials. The cost of repairs to a printer due to inferior generic ink would be far larger than the savings in purchasing generic inks.
Whether you use printer manufacturer or generic inks (if they are high quality) doesn't matter at all when it comes to matching screen display to print output.
Either way, to maximise the chance of producing very close matches between screen display and printer outputs, you should use an appropriate printer profile for the printer, paper and ink (generic or original) combination you are using.
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Post by Bailey on Sept 23, 2018 12:19:12 GMT
Also, whether someone installs updates to a printer or not is totally irrelevant to the need to use an appropriate printer profile for the printer, paper, ink combination in order to maximise the match between the screen display and the printer output as described in my OP.
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Post by hmca on Sept 23, 2018 13:44:25 GMT
Confused by your comment above, Bailey. When I contacted Epson support when having print problems with my old printer.....SR 3000.....the first thing they asked was if I had installed the latest updates? Epson, which I remember you use as well, seems to update rather frequently. What am I missing?
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Post by Bailey on Sept 24, 2018 0:10:10 GMT
Hi hmca, Confused by your comment above, Bailey. When I contacted Epson support when having print problems with my old printer.....SR 3000.....the first thing they asked was if I had installed the latest updates? Epson, which I remember you use as well, seems to update rather frequently. What am I missing? What I meant with this post Also, whether someone installs updates to a printer or not is totally irrelevant to the need to use an appropriate printer profile for the printer, paper, ink combination in order to maximise the match between the screen display and the printer output as described in my OP. is that after installing a new printer straight out of the box and creating a custom printer profile for it, theoretically you could choose to never install any subsequent printer firmware updates or printer driver software updates and happily churn out prints that match the screen display until the printer eventually wears out. But even if you do install updates, if the update doesn't affect the way ink is distributed onto the paper then your prints will still match the screen display. As posted earlier, I have an Epson SC P600 (main dedicated photo printer) since around 2015 and an Epson Workforce 435 all-in-one since around 2013 which is now mainly used just as a scanner. So far I have had only 3 firmware updates made available for the P600 and maybe 4-5 for the Workforce 435. I have also had 1 printer driver update for the P600. After installing all of the updates I haven't noticed any change in print quality on both printers. The firmware updates for the P600 could have been for making the nozzle cleaning function more efficient etc etc. The firmware updates for the Workforce 435 could have been for the printer, scanner or fax. So if I don't see any difference in print quality after an update, there is no need for me to create new printer profiles. If there are changes in print quality (updates might affect the way ink is applied to the paper), then I will have to make new printer profiles. The bottom line imho is that regardless of how many updates are installed onto a printer, you should use an appropriate printer profile for the printer, ink, paper combination you are using to maximise the chance of getting a very close match between screen display and printer output. |
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Post by hmca on Sept 24, 2018 1:25:43 GMT
Thanks for the clarification.....I always install updates for my P600 and always match profiles to the paper I am using. I had never really understood what exactly was being updated and don't remember if Epson provides that info..... like Adobe does for example.
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