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Post by Peterj on Aug 7, 2018 3:51:47 GMT
Sepiana, Thank you for this support. I was quite clear when I quoted kdcintx in my reply.
It's sorta sad that this subject has been so diluted - hard for folks to separate "the wheat from the chaff"
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Post by Peterj on Aug 7, 2018 4:51:29 GMT
An effort to get this thread back on track "Elements+ and noise stacking"
Here's another experiment. I set my camera to the highest ISO & fstop available, intentionally moved a globe into a darkened part of my home, didn't use a tripod but put the camera on a table and snapped away. I chose to use raw vs camera generated jpg to avoid camera noise reduction; the screen dump also avoided any conversion anomalies changing file types.
The purpose is to mimic all the worst conditions and see how well noise stacking works and to document how much time is involved.
setup took about 5 minutes - capture 7 images about 20 seconds
- copy to pc about 2 min
- open raw images, execute Elements+ noise stacking, save resulting psd about 3 minutes
- make screen copy of side by side at 100% [psd to raw] 20 sec
noise stacking psd on left ................................................. raw on right
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Post by kdcintx on Aug 7, 2018 15:05:29 GMT
Using 3 different exposures of the moon, here's my attempt at a comparison using the Noise Stacking script in Elements+ and HDR in PSE 14. I also tried HDR using Photomatix but the result wasn't worth posting. I think Elements+ provided a much better final image. Thanks again Pete for taking time to provide this helpful information.
Noise Stacking with Elements+
preview.ibb.co/fb238z/Moon_Noise_Stacking.jpg
HDR in PSE 14
preview.ibb.co/gnQvMK/Moon_HDR.jpg |
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Post by Bailey on Aug 8, 2018 1:32:18 GMT
I can see now from Peter's second set of images and kdcintx's moon images that Noise Stacking can be a viable option for noise reduction.
But to be honest and frank, I doubt it will ever be my main method for noise reduction because I find ACR's noise removal to be extremely good and much quicker for me. If for some reason ACR ever failed to remove noise satisfactorily, then I would look at Noise Stacking in Elements+ as an option since I have Elements+.  On a side note, for anyone interested in photographing the moon at some stage for the first time, I don't know what exposure settings kdcintx used but I wouldn't think you should need noise stacking to remove any noise. In this photo (ISO 400) there was very little noise and very easily and quickly removed in ACR. You shouldn't need a high ISO, where noise is much more likely, to photograph the moon. (Click image to view enlargement which is clearer.)
So in this case, yes I could have used noise stacking to remove the noise but it would have been extra work and taken a little longer.
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Post by Sepiana on Aug 8, 2018 1:54:29 GMT
Sepiana, Thank you for this support. I was quite clear when I quoted kdcintx in my reply.
It's sorta sad that this subject has been so diluted - hard for folks to separate "the wheat from the chaff" Pete, you are most welcome! IMHO, you were crystal clear.
Just continue on track! I believe the experiments you are conducting and reporting on this thread with the focus on Elements+ noise stacking are very helpful to our members who use this add-on by Andrei Doubrovski . Keep up the good work!
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Post by Peterj on Aug 8, 2018 2:12:59 GMT
Taking this one step further ... used the jpg images generated by the camera in Elements+ noise stacking, then sent both psd files to Elements+ noise stacking. The results are pretty amazing; click in the image to view full screen. left image is jpg stack ............ center image is raw stack ....... right image is jpg/raw stack |
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Post by Andrei Doubrovski on Aug 8, 2018 4:53:16 GMT
I think, I must clarify some things about the Noise Stacking (NS). 1. The purpose of this tool is: to get some decent pictures while shooting handheld in the dark. Instead of using a tripod: - you switch your camera to the "burst" (serial) shooting mode - set exposure time to a "handheld" value (e.g., 1/50 sec) - increase the ISO level accordingly (e.g., to 6400) - hold the camera as steady as possible - press the shutter for 1-2 seconds (i.e., take 7-15 photos). The important thing is: this method requires several almost identical images made on site (before using the script). If you haven't taken those during the photo session, the script can't help you. 2. Comparing NS to ACR noise reduction (or to any filter/plugin). If you are using a single photo, no tool can restore the details damaged by the noise. Just because those image data are irretrievably lost. NS combines several source images. So, you have a chance to: - remove the noise without blurring - restore the damaged details. 3. NS isn't intended as a HDR tool. By combining several "bracketed" photos with this script, you just get an average exposure all over field, without any improvement in the shadows and highlights 4. Before using NS script, please, be sure to watch this video: youtu.be/yqV_Ua1gMpY*** Below are some results of the "noise-stacking". ISO 6400, 1/80 sec, 12 photos:  ISO 6400, 1/80 sec, 12 photos:  ISO 8063, 1/250 sec, 10 photos:  |
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Post by Bailey on Aug 8, 2018 9:49:05 GMT
Hi Andrei,
Thank you very much for clarifying on how to use the script properly. I have had a look at your video and I really appreciate it 
With my Canon camera, I notice noise in low light really kicks in at ISO 3200 and beyond and I wouldn't normally contemplate not using a tripod in these circumstances because yes, I agree any noise removal application will at least soften an image when removing a lot of noise. But below ISO 3200, in my experience, ACR noise removal does a pretty good job for me.
From your video, and earlier post, I see that similar photos (using burst mode/continuous shooting mode) is a must-have and not exposure bracketed photos. That makes sense to me.
After watching your video, I will definitely have a play with your Elements+ Noise Stacking script as it's clearly an option for when I am forced to shoot at ISO 3200+ hand held.
Thank you so much for Elements+ and the online help/video tutorials you provide.
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Post by Andrei Doubrovski on Aug 8, 2018 10:21:30 GMT
You are very welcome!
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Post by Sepiana on Aug 9, 2018 2:40:54 GMT
I think, I must clarify some things about the Noise Stacking (NS). 1. The purpose of this tool is: to get some decent pictures while shooting handheld in the dark. Instead of using a tripod: - you switch your camera to the "burst" (serial) shooting mode - set exposure time to a "handheld" value (e.g., 1/50 sec) - increase the ISO level accordingly (e.g., to 6400) - hold the camera as steady as possible - press the shutter for 1-2 seconds (i.e., take 7-15 photos). The important thing is: this method requires several almost identical images made on site (before using the script). If you haven't taken those during the photo session, the script can't help you. 2. Comparing NS to ACR noise reduction (or to any filter/plugin). If you are using a single photo, no tool can restore the details damaged by the noise. Just because those image data are irretrievably lost. NS combines several source images. So, you have a chance to: - remove the noise without blurring - restore the damaged details. 3. NS isn't intended as a HDR tool. By combining several "bracketed" photos with this script, you just get an average exposure all over field, without any improvement in the shadows and highlights 4. Before using NS script, please, be sure to watch this video: youtu.be/yqV_Ua1gMpY
Andrei, thanks so much for taking the time to write such detailed clarification. Users of Elements+ will undoubtedly benefit from it. Your contribution is truly appreciated.
I believe no. 2 is the most relevant clarification. It is in line with Peterj 's experiments. As a matter of fact, the consensus among the experts seems to be that Noise Stacking is preferable to ACR noise reduction (for the same reasons you delineated).
As a side note, . . .
Once I attended a Photoshop webinar which offered a session on noise reduction. The discussion involved a comparison of ACR vs the Stack Mode. Then, the question was raised concerning Photoshop Elements due to the fact that Adobe closed the door on the latter tool in this program. I loved the presenter's suggestion (and you will too)! He said that it didn't matter that Adobe did that because there was a key to open it -- Elements+ and its Noise Stacking script. Go and get it! |
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Post by Andrei Doubrovski on Aug 9, 2018 3:33:43 GMT
Thanks, Sepiana! Surely, I'm pleased to hear it |
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Post by Sepiana on Aug 9, 2018 4:23:15 GMT
Andrei, you are most welcome! I knew you would be pleased. |
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Post by Bailey on Aug 9, 2018 7:32:06 GMT
Hi Andrei,
I have had another look at your video and the process you describe is straight forward. I assume in your demo you are using jpeg images because they open straight into the PSE editor.
I normally shoot using raw format so to my understanding of your video I should follow this process, and please correct me if I am wrong.
1. Take the raw format photos in burst/continuous shooting mode.
2. Open all the images and by default they will be opened in ACR.
3. Because in your video you say the images must be similar (not different or braketed exposures) apply any white-balance, exposure, tonal etc but NOT noise corrections to ALL the raw images.
4. Open the images in the PSE editor and then run the noise stacking script as per your video. Might have to first convert the images to 8 bit in the editor ?
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Post by Andrei Doubrovski on Aug 9, 2018 8:19:55 GMT
Hi Bailey
Yes, RAW images must give better result.
In the video, I used JPEG images just to make the workflow look a bit simpler.
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Post by Bailey on Aug 9, 2018 8:56:58 GMT
Thank you Andrei |
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