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Post by BuckSkin on Oct 31, 2020 14:58:17 GMT
As many of you know, since the very beginning, I have been having an ongoing fight with Elements corrupting my meticulously created metadata.
I have managed to learn how to control most of the problems; however, I have not been able to find a way around the IPTC data being corrupted other than to replace the corrupted data after the fact = time consuming.
Elements also completely strips away my embedded comments, forcing me to have to reinsert them.
Faced with wading through running some over 5,000 images through Elements 7, after having to replace the corrupted IPTC data in the first thousand or so, > one at a time < , being careful to make certain that I catch all of the corrupted fields, I decided that hopefully maybe possibly surely Adobe had addressed and corrected the problem by the time Elements 12 rolled around.
So, I decided to run a test, editing a batch in Elements 7 and a duplicate batch in Elements 12.
It turned out to be a big time waste and the only thing I accomplished was to learn that the problem was still present in E12. (and that it takes me about five times as long to accomplish the same edits in E12)
The data from file to matching file was corrupted in exactly the same way between the two programs, E7 and E12.
I do have regular Photoshop CS2 that I keep around for creating actions and doing batch runs of repetitive tasks; I intend to test it for corrupting data as well.
What is puzzling and also adds insult to injury is that, when a file is loaded in Elements and I look at File Info immediately prior to saving, every last crumb of the data is right there, exactly like it should be; then, I check the saved file in other programs and the data has not survived the transition.
Do any of you guys check behind the later versions of Elements, and Photoshop and Lightroom; paying special attention to Date/Time Taken, Author, Copyright, Embedded Comment, and all IPTC fields, to see if your metadata is still intact and still correct ?
It is very disheartening and somewhat frustrating to have to remain ever vigilant and follow along behind, setting things back to rights.
Thanks for reading and all help is appreciated.
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Post by fotofrank on Oct 31, 2020 20:44:27 GMT
So just a quick question - Which is older your camera or your elements software? The format of the metadata has changed over time and that may be what is causing the issue. I am using the latest version of Lightroom and Photoshop and elements 2020 and I do not see any corruption or changes - unless I decide to strip some information from the image metadata.
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Post by Sepiana on Oct 31, 2020 21:26:58 GMT
The format of the metadata has changed over time and that may be what is causing the issue. I am using the latest version of Lightroom and Photoshop and elements 2020 and I do not see any corruption or changes - unless I decide to strip some information from the image metadata. Frank, You made a great point. I have the latest version of Photoshop (2021), Lightroom (v10), and Elements (2021); I don't have any problems with the metadata being corrupted, incorrect, etc. As a matter of fact, I also have Elements 7 and Elements 12; I never encountered such problems when using these versions. |
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 1, 2020 2:08:23 GMT
What programs are you guys using to embed the data ? Maybe I need to change horses.
We have numerous cameras, including but not limited to Canon 7DMkII, Canon 7D, a matched pair of Canon T3/1100D, Canon S90, a drawer full of various Canon SD___ pocket cameras, HP M415, Go-Pro Hero 4 Silver, and a Sony CyberShot DSC-H5 that uses weird non-standard memory cards, and at least four different flatbed scanners.
It matters not which of these cameras or scanners a file is from; it even does it to the wife's cell phone pictures.
This problem has plagued me on several machines, DELL, HP, Sony, and etc., and in Windows XP, 7, and 8.1, and also various Linux platforms.
It matters not whether the file is an original jpeg, a RAW converted jpeg, a scan, a screenshot, a downloaded jpeg.
I make certain that the data is embedded into the jpeg file itself, visible across all platforms and on anyone's machine, and not just in some programs database; no sidecars.
To write the data into the jpeg files, I use a combination of FastStone, XnView MP, and digiKam, depending on which one handles a particular field better/easier/quicker.
I frequently update these programs to the most recent version.
As soon as possible after acquiring images, whether it is one or a couple thousand, while my memory of the details is still fresh, I gather all the information and write/embed the data into the original, base layer, jpeg.
My hopes and intentions are that this information will then always be embedded within the resulting PSD file and thus carry through to every future product of that PSD.
Like I stated earlier, when I have the jpeg-become-PSD file loaded in Elements, I can look in File Info and every last detail will be right there, embedded within that PSD.
I can save the PSD, make a dozen copies, move it from drive to drive, machine to machine, and always, when I load the file (or a copy) in Elements and look in File Info, there the complete and correct information is.
I save a jpeg and check it for data integrity in other programs and several of the data fields will be either completely missing, changed, or part of the information missing.
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 2, 2020 10:56:05 GMT
Here are examples of what I have been dealing with: Each image includes screenshots of IPTC Metadata within a jpeg file Before being loaded in Elements, Elements File Info from within Elements, and the same file After being saved from Elements. As you can see, every bit, piece, and particle of the IPTC information is displayed in Elements File Info; Elements has no excuse and nowhere to point a finger, as Elements is 100% aware of this data. These examples are from Elements 7, but Elements 12 does no better. What I find equally curious is that, after all is said and done, I can load the saved file with all the missing information back in Elements and the complete File Info will display, although it will not and cannot display in any other platform. It is my understanding that Adobe invented/created both XMP and IPTC; yet, they cannot seem to get their own programs to handle it properly. Due to the size limitations of the posted images, you will probably have to zoom in closer to read the fields.    |
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Post by michelb on Nov 2, 2020 13:29:10 GMT
It is my understanding that Adobe invented/created both XMP and IPTC; yet, they cannot seem to get their own programs to handle it properly. More info:
It seems that your issues are mainly with some specific fields of the IPTC fields used by press agencies and stock image agencies. I can't enlarge your screenshots, but they are still readable.
Many softwares can read most of the metadata in the new and old versions of IPTC as well as the EXIF data coming from the camera, including Adobe Photoshop, Elements, Lightroom or Bridge. It's not a surprise that the fields reserved to each camera maker are not universally understood. The software which is recognized as being the best one is Exiftool.
For typical photographers like members of our forum, most of the IPTC fine details are irrelevant, they mainly care about the exif data, keywords, captions and ratings and now about time (and time zones with ESD), face recognition. So generally, that means that most are not bothered by issues about metadata. If you browse several forums about photography, you'll find that the main complaints are about time fields. There are common misunderstandings from users, there are many kinds of date fields (just look at the properties of files in the Explorer), there are file formats with big issues (video and PNG...), there are different interpretations of the standards from different softwares and worse, by each camera maker.
I am not sure I understand your issue, the main problem I see is that you are losing metadata in your original file or metadata you have especially written in the 'IPTC' fields from Elements or other softwares when you save your file to another format or to a new copy?
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Post by PeteB on Nov 2, 2020 14:08:33 GMT
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 2, 2020 14:49:21 GMT
I am not sure I understand your issue, the main problem I see is that you are losing metadata in your original file or metadata you have especially written in the 'IPTC' fields from Elements or other softwares when you save your file to another format or to a new copy?
None of my other programs have any problem seeing all of the data UNTIL a jpeg that contains all of the data is loaded in the Elements Editor to do a bit of editing. I then save a PSD and the edited version of the jpeg with the same exact filename except with _I appended to the end to differentiate the edited jpeg from the unedited. It even happens when I save the edited jpeg written over the original with no change in name or location. The edited jpeg saved from Elements will then ALWAYS have the data corrupted and the embedded jpeg comment stripped away. The evidence of what is taking place is in the screenshot images I posted. This behavior slows me down a bunch, having to reinstate the info that should not have been altered in the first place. As I have already demonstrated, Elements acknowledges the complete info is there, it just does not pass it on in the saved image file. These data fields are important to me or I would not spend the effort to get it entered in the appropriate fields. It is not a problem of other programs being able to read the data; they read it fine; it is a problem of Elements stripping away portions if not all of it such that the data is no longer there to be read. |
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 2, 2020 14:59:25 GMT
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. No, I have not yet used Bridge for anything actually. I have fired it up two or three times and played around to see what it is, but have not yet had the time to get acquainted with it. I am quite familiar with using metadata templates as both XnViewMP and digiKam have excellent metadata template abilities. That Bridge Replace Metadata Template might be worth looking into. |
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Post by michelb on Nov 2, 2020 20:35:11 GMT
What programs are you guys using to embed the data ? Maybe I need to change horses. ... I save a jpeg and check it for data integrity in other programs and several of the data fields will be either completely missing, changed, or part of the information missing. I imagine that most users are happy with the Adobe (relatively recent) solutions in PSE, LR, Photoshop and especially Bridge. Very few need the detailed info of the IPTC core section you are showing for professional use (copyright, models...) or uploading to the important information may be covered by keywords, captions, ratings and notes.
I repeat myself:
"For typical photographers like members of our forum, most of the IPTC fine details are irrelevant, they mainly care about the exif data, keywords, captions and ratings and now about time (and time zones with ESD), face recognition. So generally, that means that most are not bothered by issues about metadata."
If you look at what the Elements editor and organizer can do, you'll be surprised that the above main metadata fields which are replicated in many parts of the exif and IPTC are enough for most users. The detailed 'info' panel in the editor has the detailed items you are showing. One powerful feature of the editor together with the organizer is also to use metadata templates like Bridge. One thing which surprises me is the 'jpeg comment' tab. In the various softwares I sometimes use beside Adobe's, exiftoolgui, Faststone, Irfanview, geosetter, I don't find that metadata section or it has another name.
My suggestion: while screenshots are certainly useful, we could have a look at a test jpeg (not yet opened in PSE) in which you could fill all the relevant metadata fields with dummy values so that we might look at what we can do with our own softwares and test the reason why PSE skips or truncates those data?
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 2, 2020 21:54:20 GMT
One thing which surprises me is the ' jpeg comment' tab. In the various softwares I sometimes use beside Adobe's, exiftoolgui, Faststone, Irfanview, geosetter, I don't find that metadata section or it has another name. If you have either FastStone or XnView, I would have thought you would be familiar with the embedded jpeg comment; the screenshot I posted is of the jpeg comment viewer in FastStone. You can write a ton of information in an embedded jpeg comment; I don't know if there is even a limit, if there is, I have not yet exceeded it. In FastStone, select a jpeg and (with the mouse over the thumbnail) press the "T" key, and the jpeg comment editor/writer will appear. To simply view a jpeg comment in FastStone, View > Image Properties and click the JPEG Comment tab. Currently, FastStone is limited to writing jpeg comments to a single image at a time; XnView can write to a whole batch at once. If I am writing unique information that is only applicable to a single image, I prefer FastStone; of course, if I am writing identical information to many images, I use XnViews batch ability. I can do that; and, it would be most appreciated. If I use imgbb and post the image just like I did the screenshots, will the metadata remain intact ? If not, then how would be best to get the jpeg delivered ? |
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Post by michelb on Nov 3, 2020 13:08:35 GMT
I am not sure all the metadata will be saved from imgbb. A Dropbox or similar link would be better. However, in the meantime, I have followed your advice with Faststone: I am able to enter 'jpeg comments'. And you know what? Those 'jpeg comments' are nowhere to be seen when opened afterwards in Elements nor in Bridge. With exiftoolgui, that metadata field is not present in the usual sections: - exif - xmp - iptc - maker
It does appear if I choose 'All', under '---File---', FileType = jpeg, Comment = [my dummy comment]
I have not found understandable specifications for the jpeg metadata section format, so I suspect that this 'comments' field (which your other softwares can read) is linked to the jpeg format and that might explain the loss when converting to another format.
This means that, not knowing that fact, I would have been unable to read your comments with my usual softwares. So, it's absolutely necessary to confirm if what I have done is reproducible before jumping to conclusions.
For reference, here is your link to 'labelling your digital photos'. |
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 3, 2020 13:42:58 GMT
I have not found understandable specifications for the jpeg metadata section format, so I suspect that this 'comments' field (which your other softwares can read) is linked to the jpeg format and that might explain the loss when converting to another format. Just to be clear, my jpeg comments are disappearing when I save as a jpeg. The file enters Elements as a jeg, fully loaded with all data including the jpeg comment. The resultant saved jpeg from Elements will have the jpeg comment completely stripped away. As for getting some test files in your hands, am I correct in assuming that even a very small pixel dimension jpeg will still carry all of the metadata ? such that I could crop a small portion of one of my information-laden jpegs and it not be very "large" at all for plain old e-mail as an attachment ? I really appreciate your taking an interest in this situation. I doubt that Adobe will provide me with a hot-fix or a patch to repair the situation; but, maybe you may find a viable workaround that will keep my information intact. |
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Post by michelb on Nov 3, 2020 14:15:15 GMT
I have not found understandable specifications for the jpeg metadata section format, so I suspect that this 'comments' field (which your other softwares can read) is linked to the jpeg format and that might explain the loss when converting to another format. Just to be clear, my jpeg comments are disappearing when I save as a jpeg. The file enters Elements as a jeg, fully loaded with all data including the jpeg comment. The resultant saved jpeg from Elements will have the jpeg comment completely stripped away. Yes, it's my understanding that there are similar cases where Elements skips or truncates some metadata. That was mentionned for GPS data which lost precision in the resave.
You are right. You could even blur the image itself, we are only interested in the metadata.
As for workarounds, the obvious choice is to never edit original, only copies or 'version sets' which suppose using an organizer or LR catalog or taking care to store original and version side by side. One important note about the 'parametric' editing in Lightroom or ACR: the original is never changed with raw files. Your detailed information is always intact. With jpegs, the parametric edits do keep the original pixel values; however, since the metadata is rewritten in the jpeg header, I fear that we risk the same issues.
Before we can definitively test the issues, what I can say is that it's natural for organizer users to use the 'notes' field instead of the 'jpeg comments'. The notes are not limited in size and are regular fields in the exif/IPTC standards which ensures they can be written to files. Hower it's not used by many softwares including Lightroom; LR will convert notes to... captions. Captions are universally recognized (they may be called 'description' or otherwise) and I use them to document the names of people group shots.
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Post by BuckSkin on Nov 4, 2020 6:42:34 GMT
Thanks.
I will choose some un-incriminating original jpegs, crop them (or downsize them in FastStone), load them with all the info, and get them ready for shipment.
Can you PM me an email address to send them to ?
If nothing else, providing you have a version of Elements between E7 and E12 for performing the tests, if the data loss/change does not happen on your end, then the culprit may be that my Elements installations may be getting old and corrupted and need reinstalling afresh.
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