gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 24, 2021 18:30:27 GMT
I have my main Photos folder on Drive D containing about 7000 images. What is the best way to occasionally back up all those images to a separate drive - in my case, the F drive from within PSE2021? I'm not speaking of the Catalog - I know it does that.
Is the only "backup" performed by Elements 2021 the backup of the Catalog? Or can it also backup an entire photo folder (the originals) to another drive?
I have a backup app (Backupper) that saves entire folders (my entire folder of 7,000 images) at one go. But the results of such back up, the backed up folder on my F drive, appears to be proprietary to Backupper. It does not contain files accessible via any other program, including Elements 2021. So what is the best way of backing up the original photo of either our current work or an entire folder of our photos? I do backup a folder to Amazon Photos (unlimited storage). But mainly wonder if there is a backup from within PSE besides the Catalog. Is there a way to save the original to two places at once, into our regular folder, e.g. on my D drive, AND at the same time to my chosen backup drive F? |
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Fauxtoto
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Quebec, Canada
Posts: 418
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Post by Fauxtoto on Jan 24, 2021 20:57:27 GMT
Hi gfmucci , My understanding is that, in PSE 2021, you have the choice to back up only your catalog or to back up your catalog including all your photos and videos. After you have first performed a full backup including all photos and videos, you can occasionally perform incremental backups. So, if you have imported in the Organizer the 7000 photos you wish to back up, then this solution may work for you. I am not an expert, though. You may wish to consult this page, from the Elements Organizer User Guide. |
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 24, 2021 21:11:34 GMT
Hi gfmucci , My understanding is that, in PSE 2021, you have the choice to back up only your catalog or to back up your catalog including all your photos and videos. After you have first performed a full backup including all photos and videos, you can occasionally perform incremental backups. So, if you have imported in the Organizer the 7000 photos you wish to back up, then this solution may work for you. I am not an expert, though. You may wish to consult this page , from the the Elements Organizer User Guide. Just as you were writing your reply, I discovered that the misnamed "Backup Catalog" pull down menu under "File" does indeed provide the option of backing up IMAGE FILES as well as the Catalog. Even the User Guide title only refers to "Backup and Restore Catalogs." A more helpful title would be "Backup Catalog or Photos". Why are these software designers so chintzy with the menus and descriptions? Makes me wonder if they have to pay for every menu letter out of their own pocket. |
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Post by BuckSkin on Jan 24, 2021 23:55:54 GMT
You asked "what is the best way" ---
In my opinion, the best way to back up the contents of a drive, be it image files or whatever, is to use Synchredible to "synchronize" the contents of one drive (or folder) to another.
Synchredible makes a mirror image, if you will, of whatever it is that you want to back up.
The back up possibilities are, for all practical purposes, limitless.
You can choose to run it manually, or automatically on whatever schedule you wish, as often or less often as you desire.
The FREE version is very powerful and does anything I need.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 29, 2021 16:10:23 GMT
I haven't downloaded Syncredible yet, but I have this question about it:
When it "mirrors" to another drive or wherever, is the exact same folder and file structure maintained? Yes, I know that is the definition of "mirror" but just want to be sure.
My AOMEI Backupper (so far as I understand it at the moment) appears to create a "backup" ok, but you need to use AMOMEI to get the files back again. But then again, I haven't fully explored its functions yet.
UPDATE: Looking at AOMEI a bit closer, it appears to have a couple of mirror/sync options. Here is a screen shot of it.
Yes, AOMEI does cost around $40. I already paid for and own that app from a previous OS/boot drive change project when I installed a new SD drive.
I'll set up the "Real-time Sync", use it for awhile as I download new photo files and make edits and let you know how much it slows down my processes. ___________________
I want the mirror to be a mirror, and not require a special app to recover the files again.
BTW, as I recall, I was told by Elements "experts" that it is a big NO NO!!! to change photo file folder locations from OUTSIDE of Elements. Otherwise the Catalogs detaches from the photos. Did I misunderstand? Wouldn't this admonition apply to backups and mirrors as well?
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Post by BuckSkin on Jan 29, 2021 21:46:05 GMT
Synchredible will copy/mirror/synchronize exactly what you set it up for and you do not have to use Synchredible to use/retrieve/manipulate the backup; the end product is standard Explorer fare.
It is very simple to understand and can be set up to do things just as you want.
I use the FREE version and it does anything I need.
It doesn't cost anything to download it and give it a try.
Good luck with AOMEI; it failed me on a few occasions and I quit using it.
I use Macrium Reflect for creating system images and such; it does anything AOMEI can do and is a lot more dependable.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 31, 2021 20:57:11 GMT
Synchredible will copy/mirror/synchronize exactly what you set it up for and you do not have to use Synchredible to use/retrieve/manipulate the backup; the end product is standard Explorer fare. It is very simple to understand and can be set up to do things just as you want. I use the FREE version and it does anything I need. It doesn't cost anything to download it and give it a try. Good luck with AOMEI; it failed me on a few occasions and I quit using it. I use Macrium Reflect for creating system images and such; it does anything AOMEI can do and is a lot more dependable. Buckskin:
Do you use the PSE Organizer? I ask that because my understanding is that for those of us who use the Organizer, when we make changes OUTSIDE of the Organizer, whether it be backups or moving files around through Windows, that we will get disconnects from the Catalog. I don't understand how those who don't use the Organizer/Catalog system for their filing systems can rely on Windows-based filing and backups without screwing up their Catalog connections to their edits.
Please straighten me out on this. Thanks.
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Post by BuckSkin on Feb 1, 2021 19:48:23 GMT
Do you use the PSE Organizer? I ask that because my understanding is that for those of us who use the Organizer, when we make changes OUTSIDE of the Organizer, whether it be backups or moving files around through Windows, that we will get disconnects from the Catalog. I don't understand how those who don't use the Organizer/Catalog system for their filing systems can rely on Windows-based filing and backups without screwing up their Catalog connections to their edits.
Please straighten me out on this. Thanks.
I abandoned the "Organizer" years ago; it may be different now, but all it ever did for me was keep me busy cleaning up behind it and it was a huge annoyance at corrupting metadata and altering Date Taken. That being said, all the Organizer/Catalog is is a database. You can make as many backups as you wish, using other programs, not letting the Organizer know what you are doing --- so long as you do not relocate/delete/rename files that are in the location(s) that the Organizer "sees" --- am I making sense ? Synchredible will even make backup copies of your catalog(s) database and store them wherever you point it toward --- without any knowledge of Elements knowing anything about it; then, should your catalog get messed up or corrupted, you can manually switch out the database. |
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Chris
Established Forum Member
Posts: 435
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by Chris on Feb 1, 2021 21:19:16 GMT
gfmucci using a third party backup programme (eg SyncToy, Syncredible or FreeFileSync) will not affect your organiser catalogue because it does not in any way change the contents of the original folder that is connected to the Elements organiser. I gave up on the elements organiser a long time ago and I prefer to organise my pictures using Windows Explorer.
Some time ago I used Microsoft SyncToy (Free). Then I switched to FreeFileSync because it is faster and has better features. I have never used Syncredible but I am sure it must do the same job very well. My procedure is to connect an external drive, do a mirror back up and then safely remove the drive. In fact I bought a 4Tbt drive and regularly back up all my personal files this way at least once a week.
My only word of warning is to read the instructions very carefully and do a test run on a dummy folder to make sure you have configured all the settings correctly so you don't accidentally delete anything you need. Then apply those settings to configure your real backup.
With FreeFileSync if I set up Folder A as the original folder and B as the backup folder then "Mirror" means that folder will have the exact same contents as A. if I add a file to A it will be added to B. If I delete from A then it will be deleted from B.
Kind regards
Chris
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Post by michelb on Feb 1, 2021 21:55:12 GMT
gfmucci using a third party backup programme (eg SyncToy, Syncredible or FreeFileSync) will not affect your organiser catalogue because it does not in any way change the contents of the original folder that is connected to the Elements organiser. I gave up on the elements organiser a long time ago and I prefer to organise my pictures using Windows Explorer. Chris Warning!
A Syncing software reproduces the contents of the original folder (or folder tree). You find the same structure and media files in the synced folders. Good.
If you sync a catalog, what happens? It's the same. Nothing is changed. Exactly the same as copying or moving the catalog folder anywhere on your computer. And that's the problem. Why? Even if you have kept the same structure for the paths and the folder tree for your media files, the organizer database works by storing the location of each media file. That location may look the same on both synced drives/folder trees, but in the organizer, the location of the file is known by the path, the drive letter AND the drive identification, which is the internal serial number of the drive. So, the synced catalog links to the original drive, not to the synced one. The result is that if the original drive is no longer accessible, the synced or copied catalog folder shows all files as disconnected. Only the backup and restore process of the organizer takes care of updating those locations in the new drive.
Of course, you don't care if you are not using the organizer and its catalogs. The syncing apps you are mentioning are very useful and much faster than a full backup and restore of the organizer. I do use them (Synctoy and Acronis) and I would be able to use only them and only them because I know how to edit the sqlite database to update manually the identifications of the drives.
And the catalog contents issue is not only about backups, it's also about sharing between different users with Cloud solutions like OneDrive or Dropbox. You can use the dedicated synced folders and share the media files, but the shared catalog only links to the original computer, not to the synced library via the Cloud on the other computer.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Feb 2, 2021 18:35:30 GMT
So, both Buckskin and Chris are NOT using the Organizer/Catalogs of Elements. For users of Elements who do NOT use the Organizer but apparently only the Editor, their system of backup outside of Elements works and makes sense for them - and for others who do the same.
On the other hand, those of us who DO use the Organizer in Elements and rely on it for backups as well as organizing and retrieving our images and edits should NOT follow the advice of those who do NOT use the Organizer.
THAT is where advice on this and any Post Processing board can go awry. So unless we know and understand the platform of photo organizer (generic) the person providing advice uses, we may be misled into believing that their non-Elements Organizer (specific) method of backups will work for those of us who rely on the Organizer in Elements when it WILL NOT. It WILL create problems for the Catalog and connections to image files.
For those who do not use the Organizer and only use the Editor, I guess the "Save As" to a new .jpg image relieves them of having to use the edited setting in the Organizer/Catalog combo.
Am I understanding correctly, Michelb?
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Chris
Established Forum Member
Posts: 435
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Post by Chris on Feb 2, 2021 19:55:22 GMT
gfmucci, thank you for mentioning this. I can understand your concern. Also thank you Michel for your advice. Michel has a lot of experience with the organiser and has pointed out some of the dangers to avoid. But in his post he also mentions that he has successfully used sync programmes to make backups. You just have to be careful during the procedure, especially when using cloud solutions.
You can use sync programmes or other methods to make a backup of your photos. The elements organiser should work fine as long as you do not change the location (or path) of your original files, otherwise it will show them as disconnected. (Please can someone correct me if I am wrong on this point- I am always learning new things from the forum)
For example, say you have all your photos in the "My pictures" folder. Then you plug in a usb and use copy and paste to copy all your photos to the usb and remove it. The organiser will continue working just fine.
Basically a sync programme does exactly the same thing but with some extra bells and whistles. It just copies files from one place to another.
I don't use the PSE organiser, but I do use the Adobe Lightroom organiser catalogue that works on a similar principle. I have used syncing programmes for many years and have never experienced any problems with the LR catalogue.
Whatever method you use, its very important to make a backup. sooner or later hard drives will fail.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards
Chris
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Post by michelb on Feb 2, 2021 20:00:44 GMT
So, both Buckskin and Chris are NOT using the Organizer/Catalogs of Elements. For users of Elements who do NOT use the Organizer but apparently only the Editor, their system of backup outside of Elements works and makes sense for them. On the other hand, those of us who DO use the Organizer in Elements and rely on it for backups as well as organizing and retrieving our images and edits should NOT follow the advice of those who do NOT use the Organizer. THAT is where advice on this and any Post Processing board can go awry. So unless we know and understand the platform of photo organizer (generic) the person providing advice uses, we may be misled into believing that their non-Elements Organizer (specific) method of backups will work for those of us who rely on the Organizer in Elements when it WILL NOT. It WILL create problems for the Catalog and connections to image files. Am I understanding correctly, Michelb? Yes, that's my point. As you have noticed, I am using both solutions regularly to take advantage of their relative strengths. There is no such thing as too much backup!
One thing I have not stressed enough is that external solutions have the big advantage of being automatic and periodic. Provided the backups from the organizer and the external tools are available if your main computer gets stolen or similar, I consider your are safe enough if you have a daily external backup and a one month old organizer backup. All your pictures will be saved, you'll only have to organize again the one month period. Not too dramatic. A daily external backup is relatively fast, an organizer backup for my 650 GB library requires 3 to 4 hours of night job; that's my choice.
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Post by michelb on Feb 2, 2021 20:13:35 GMT
gfmucci, thank you for mentioning this. I can understand your concern. Also thank you Michel for your advice. Michel has a lot of experience with the organiser and has pointed out some of the dangers to avoid. But in his post he also mentions that he has successfully used sync programmes to make backups. You just have to be careful during the procedure, especially when using cloud solutions. You can use sync programmes or other methods to make a backup of your photos. The elements organiser should work fine as long as you do not change the location (or path) of your original files, otherwise it will show them as disconnected. (Please can someone correct me if I am wrong on this point- I am always learning new things from the forum) For example, say you have all your photos in the "My pictures" folder. Then you plug in a usb and use copy and paste to copy all your photos to the usb and remove it. The organiser will continue working just fine. Basically a sync programme does exactly the same thing but with some extra bells and whistles. It just copies files from one place to another. I don't use the PSE organiser, but I do use the Adobe Lightroom organiser catalogue that works on a similar principle. I have used syncing programmes for many years and have never experienced any problems with the LR catalogue. Whatever method you use, its very important to make a backup. sooner or later hard drives will fail. I hope this helps. Kind regards Chris Chris, Thanks for mentioning Lightroom. The dangers I am warning about are specific to the way the organizer deals with drives in its catalogs. There are similar constraints for both LR and PSE catalog management, in particular external modification or deletion of files. However, the big architecture difference is that if you work on a 'copy and paste' of your library to another drive (when upgrading for instance), the PSE catalogs won't recognize the new drive and show all files as disconnected. A big issue with the organizer which can't reconnect a big library without a lot of manual work in the best cases. Not a problem with LR, which can reconnect easily if the paths and folder tree are similar. About the organizer, if you want to use the catalog, you can't use syncing or backup external solutions to move to another computer. The forums are full of posts about this; it's perhaps the most frequent faq.
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Chris
Established Forum Member
Posts: 435
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by Chris on Feb 2, 2021 20:49:00 GMT
Thank you Michel for sharing this information. I am learning some new things! It's interesting how the LR catalogue can reconnect much easier than the PSE catalogue.
So please let me know if I have understood correctly.
A sync programme can be used to back up files for "safety" BUT the backed up files will not be included in the organiser catalogue. However, the organiser will continue to function normally with the original files as long as they have not been changed?
So if the purpose of backing up is simply to have a copy of the files then sync programmes or other methods can be used.
BUT if the purpose of the backup is to rebuild the organiser tree and reconnect all those files in the event that the original files are lost then, it would be better to do the backup through the organiser itself.
I think there may have been some confusion because I did not fully understand the original question posted by gfmucci. I apologise for that.
Thank you again Michel for sharing your knowledge.
Kind regards
Chris
PS I regularly do two kinds of backup
1- I back up my system drive using Aomei
2- I back up all my photos and user files using FreeFileSync
So in the event of a HD failure I can restore all my programmes and files.
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