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Post by stevenm on Apr 10, 2017 18:52:12 GMT
Sorry for jumping back in like this as I haven't been visiting the forums like I used to. Have been busy working on a few commissions along with a recent acquaintance that has been keeping me busy retouching photos for her fans.
I've always have been confused about printing, resolution and photo dimensions and wonder if anyone here can straighten me out.
Recently a client sent me two photos that where taken on her cell phone for retouching before posting them to her fans on Facebook. Most of the time she allows me to save/print them if I with.
The first is 10.417"w X 12.847h @72ppi. I reduced it to 5 X 6.167 @300ppi and was able to get a nice print from it without any distortion.
The second photo is 10.412w X 10.194h @72ppi. I tried the same approach and setting it to 5.417w X 5.399h @300. However this photo shows jpg artifacts after resizing. Am gathering the problem resides in the dimensions or am I missing something?
TIA
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Post by Major Major on Apr 10, 2017 19:02:37 GMT
Some details (including settings) of exactly how you are doing your resizing would be helpful.
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Post by stevenm on Apr 11, 2017 23:12:23 GMT
Am going to image, image size and changing the width to what was stated above...
The first is 10.417"w X 12.847h @72ppi. I reduced it to 5 X 6.167 @300ppi using Image, image size to make the changes and was able to get a nice print from it without any distortion.
The second photo is 10.412w X 10.194h @72ppi. I tried the same approach and setting it to 5.417w X 5.399h @300. However this photo shows jpg artifacts after resizing.
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Post by michelb on Apr 12, 2017 6:17:00 GMT
When you resize as described, without checking the 'resample' button, nothing is changed in your pixels. The in/cm size is just a text note to show you in advance the resulting resolution when printing, it's just a note of your 'printing intent'. If the pixels are not changed, that means that the process can't produce artifacts on the pixels. Since you are seeing a difference, the very common issue may be with the display on your monitor. To judge the difference, you should set the display to 100% view, a screen pixel equals a picture pixel - shortcut double click on the magnifier tool. The other way would be to print both versions on a 4 x 6 " paper, setting the printer paper size to that dimension and to fit in that paper. You should not see any difference (you would be above 300 ppi). Anyway, if the purpose is to display on the web, the physical in/cm dimensions are totally irrelevant, only pixel dimensions are significant.
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Post by cats4jan on Apr 12, 2017 12:41:08 GMT
Good explanation, michelb - it's hard to get across to people that pixel size is the only relevant issue - especially when one is not printing.
For printing, this is how I look at it. Take your pixels, divide each side by 300 (which seems to be the accepted standard for a good print) and that resulting width/length is the maximum printable size.
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Post by michelb on Apr 12, 2017 16:52:56 GMT
For printing, this is how I look at it. Take your pixels, divide each side by 300 (which seems to be the accepted standard for a good print) and that resulting width/length is the maximum printable size. As a matter of fact, 300 is too much, even for offset printing according to JR_Boulay, 240 is good enough. So, it's even easier here where we are using metric units: we just divide by 100 to get the possible size in centimeters. (one inch = 2.54 centimers). forums.adobe.com/thread/2162809For instance, for A4 (21 x 29.7 cm), 2100 x 2970 pixels is a good estimation.
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Post by cats4jan on Apr 12, 2017 20:45:13 GMT
I come from a scrapbooking background and everything is based on 300. Since 300 isn't that far from 240, I guess it's all right to keep thinking 300, because it's not 'overkill'
My point is - which I believe is the same as your point - think in pixels, not resolution.
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Post by michelb on Apr 13, 2017 7:06:03 GMT
I come from a scrapbooking background and everything is based on 300. Since 300 isn't that far from 240, I guess it's all right to keep thinking 300, because it's not 'overkill' My point is - which I believe is the same as your point - think in pixels, not resolution. Yes, Janice, we totally agree and I'll never get tired of repeating that only pixel count is important. That said, since you mention scrapbooking, it's a bit a special case for two reasons: it's always about printing, and the print size is nearly always 12" x 12" (30 cm x30 cm). So, scrapbookers do use the same language. I do print books at the 12" x 12" size, using about the same techniques as scrapbooking for manual page layouts. The viewing distance is the second important factor. Viewing prints of that size and resolution from two feet is very good. My camera provides 4896 x 3264 pixels. That's more than needed and is still adequate for a background image covering two pages with full bleed.
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Post by Sepiana on Apr 13, 2017 15:44:23 GMT
I come from a scrapbooking background and everything is based on 300. Since 300 isn't that far from 240, I guess it's all right to keep thinking 300, because it's not 'overkill' . . . scrapbooking, it's a bit a special case for two reasons: it's always about printing, and the print size is nearly always 12" x 12" (30 cm x30 cm).
Michel,
First of all, I have to confess that I don't have extensive experience with printing, especially with doing my own. So, I want to make sure I understand this issue. As you said earlier -- "300 is too much, even for offset printing according to JR_Boulay, 240 is good enough". Steven is doing retouching work on photos a client sent him and printing them. So, in this case 240 will do the job as he is not printing a scrapbooking page. On the other hand, if he were printing a scrapbooking page, 300 would be the way to go. Did I get it right? Does this mean that, if another member posts a question about printing (pixels, resolution, etc.), we need to keep this mind -- non-scrapbooking printing vs scrapbooking printing?
As a side note -- I came across another thread on the Adobe Photoshop Elements forum which also recommends the 240 route and reaffirms what you said earlier -- "only pixel count is important".
Source: 240 ppi sufficient for 11 X 14 print?
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Post by michelb on Apr 13, 2017 16:44:54 GMT
I come from a scrapbooking background and everything is based on 300. Since 300 isn't that far from 240, I guess it's all right to keep thinking 300, because it's not 'overkill' . . . scrapbooking, it's a bit a special case for two reasons: it's always about printing, and the print size is nearly always 12" x 12" (30 cm x30 cm).
Michel,
First of all, I have to confess that I don't have extensive experience with printing, especially with doing my own. So, I want to make sure I understand this issue. As you said earlier -- "300 is too much, even for offset printing according to JR_Boulay, 240 is good enough". Steven is doing retouching work on photos a client sent him and printing them. So, in this case 240 will do the job as he is not printing a scrapbooking page. On the other hand, if he were printing a scrapbooking page, 300 would be the way to go. Did I get it right? Does this mean that, if another member posts a question about printing (pixels, resolution, etc.), we need to keep this mind -- non-scrapbooking printing vs scrapbooking printing?
As a side note -- I came across another thread on the Adobe Photoshop Elements forum which also recommends the 240 route and reaffirms what you said earlier -- "only pixel count is important".
Source: 240 ppi sufficient for 11 X 14 print?
Sepiana, There is nothing really different with scrapbooking, the same rules do apply for printing. Yes, 300 is recommended everywhere and especially by online labs: it's too much but 'overkill' may be somewhat exagerated. But I think no lab would take the risk to say '240 is enough'; that would be automatically negatively misinterpreted. My point was that even if pixel size is the important factor for any kind of output, you have to take resolution into account when printing. Printing is always the case with scrapbooking. Since the size is always fixed, everybody has the 12" and 3600 pixels limits in mind; easy to add new elements to the layout. From my experience, most of the posters writing about the '300 ppi myth' are not photographers, they are professionals dealing with printing and softwares like InDesign. They do know what the printing tools are able to achieve. They also can explain that the default 300 ppi requirement came historically from outdated softwares like Quarkexpress. I have also a possible historical explanation for photographers. I started digital in 1999 with a 1.4 MB Fuji... hardly good enough for 10 x 15 cm prints. Today, any basic camera has 12 MB, even smartphones try to compete in that megapixel race. The common understanding has been that more pixels meant bigger prints; printing a 20 x 30 cm would require an 8 Mpix camera (like my old Canon 20D, rather than 6 Mpix from the 100 pp/cm). That was to allow for some cropping and for the loss of sharpness from the Bayer interpolation in sensors. Maybe that has justified an increased resolution for printing too... It's not difficult to print test photos at home or from online or local labs. Choose quality glossy paper and compare with a magnifier.
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Post by Sepiana on Apr 13, 2017 17:05:18 GMT
Sepiana, There is nothing really different with scrapbooking, the same rules do apply for printing. Yes, 300 is recommended everywhere and especially by online labs: it's too much but 'overkill' may be somewhat exagerated. But I think no lab would take the risk to say '240 is enough'; that would be automatically negatively misinterpreted. My point was that even if pixel size is the important factor for any kind of output, you have to take resolution into account when printing. Printing is always the case with scrapbooking. Since the size is always fixed, everybody has the 12" and 3600 pixels limits in mind; easy to add new elements to the layout. From my experience, most of the posters writing about the '300 ppi myth' are not photographers, they are professionals dealing with printing and softwares like InDesign. They do know what the printing tools are able to achieve. They also can explain that the default 300 ppi requirement came historically from outdated softwares like Quarkexpress. I have also a possible historical explanation for photographers. I started digital in 1999 with a 1.4 MB Fuji... hardly good enough for 10 x 15 cm prints. Today, any basic camera has 12 MB, even smartphones try to compete in that megapixel race. The common understanding has been that more pixels meant bigger prints; printing a 20 x 30 cm would require an 8 Mpix camera (like my old Canon 20D, rather than 6 Mpix from the 100 pp/cm). That was to allow for some cropping and for the loss of sharpness from the Bayer interpolation in sensors. Maybe that has justified an increased resolution for printing too...
Michel, thanks a lot! I believe I got it now. You made it very clear! I am sure your explanation (including the historical one) will help anyone following this thread -- both photographers and scrapbookers.
I usually have my photos printed by our local camera shop. They have a lab and, yes, they recommend 300. I am going to print some of the same photos at home at 240 and compare the results. I am sure I will need a magnifier.
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