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Post by hmca on Jun 19, 2019 21:36:38 GMT
Personally, I like to see both, and how they were made. Could you clarify what you mean here, Pat? Both the RAW edit next to the image where changes didn't involve the plug-ins you mentioned or both meaning including those artistic filters. I want to be sure I understand what you mean. kdcintx and blackmutt........as long as the underlying image is still recognizable I am wondering if the results could possibly be considered endless as far as member interpretation goes. I guess I would be leaning to saying no to "automation" .......the kind of comment I am finding helpful at this point. I think (hope) we might be able to come to an agreement as to what this would exclude. |
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Post by srmoment on Jun 19, 2019 23:22:00 GMT
I meant I like to see the final product next to the raw image, and an explanation as to how the final product came about.
Having said that, I agree that this challenge should not overlap other challenges.
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Post by Bailey on Jun 19, 2019 23:33:39 GMT
I meant I like to see the final product next to the raw image, and an explanation as to how the final product came about. Having said that, I agree that this challenge should not overlap other challenges. I like to see the starter image next to the final product as well. I have done that in this and the previous challenges as well. It saves visitors having to scroll back up or go back to page 1 to compare. It's easy enough to do. I just copy the url to the jpeg preview of the the dng file Helen provides in her intro post. |
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Post by tonyw on Jun 20, 2019 1:07:43 GMT
Interesting discussion. My 10c is that as the Raw challenge is in the Creative Effects section then it should be fairly liberal in what creative edits can be used. At the same time it shouldn't be an "Endless Possibilities" challenge so that edits should at least reflect the original image rather than turn it into something completely different. Ideally the original raw image would be one where the benefits of raw can be exploited in edits - so images with very wide brightness ranges are good as they offer the opportunity to extract detail from the shadows and highlights that wouldn't be possible with jpegs. If people want to use "artistic" software (eg Topaz Impression") I don't have a problem if it retains the character of the original image and people say what they used. Wild deviations like orbing or kaleidoscoping however wouldn't be appropriate but, at the end of the day, I enjoy seeing different interpretations of the same image so the fewer "rules" the better and if someone breaks the rules and comes up with an interesting effect then Id be glad to see that they participated.
Tony
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Post by hmca on Jun 20, 2019 1:47:59 GMT
Like the point that you have made Tony about this challenge being in the Creative Effects section! In fact everything you said could make this whole discussion a whole lot easier to try to come to a conclusion on. I do think the suggestions to share the RAW panel....along with an image that reflects additional edits within whatever software people use would address the requests of Bailey, Pat and maybe some others. People could just present those two with any pertinent info side-by-side. Then....the option would be if the person would like to take it one step further and could use additional software like Impression or Studio (which I don't have but would be interested to see the effects that could be achieved) textures, or whatever else is out there. Wondering if this would work for others..... blackmutt , Lillias .....anyone else? I don't have a problem if it retains the character of the original image and people say what they used. Could make things a whole lot easier and introduce members to new creative options. Thoughts, please! |
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Post by Bailey on Jun 20, 2019 5:59:38 GMT
I agree with Tony and given the title of the challenge is being creative is certainly allowed. If you want to distinguish between raw conversion and creative conversion, that will be very difficult because you can be very creative as well using just Adobe Camera Raw and nothing else. Perhaps consider changing the title/name of the challenge to reflect more accurately what you would like it to actually be. Since this challenge is not a competiton, as I see it anyway especially since the wide variety of image selections in both the Members' Choice and IOW Poll weeks clearly shows that the "winner" (and I use the term loosely) in the IOW and these types of challenges is really a lottery and depends solely on who is the judge for that week, then the less "rules" the better for the reasons Tony gave. If you over-science the "rules" and turn the challenge into a competition I feel the most likely affect will be that even fewer members will take part than they do now. Just my additional 2c worth  |
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Post by blackmutt on Jun 20, 2019 15:36:22 GMT
It the end it really doesn't matter to me. In my mind the RAW challenge was to improve the photo not change it. Where as the other challenges let you go creatively "nuts" |
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Post by Lillias on Jun 20, 2019 16:15:47 GMT
Bouncing ideas off one another certainly focuses the mind. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Bailey and Tony have said.
I do think that for the CE challenge the edits should certainly reflect the original image and not turn into something unrecognisable as can happen in the EP challenge. Having said that I now can’t get away from the fact that the word Creativity is in the title to this challenge and so a certain amount of creativity surely has to be allowed.
Perhaps we have been analysing this too much. I’m sure there is room for different approaches here… if you are of the persuasion that you don’t like or want to use actions etc; for whatever reason, then don’t use them. For others who find using such is helpful then as I said provided the original image isn’t turned into something it was never meant to be then I think that would be fine.
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Post by hmca on Jun 20, 2019 17:59:59 GMT
First I would like to clarify....when I referred to the endless possibilities that could be achieved from the starter image in my mind I meant the limitless ideas the participants might bring to the dng file. I didn't mean to imply that it would go in the direction of the EP challenge where anything goes....or in Judy's words creatively "nuts" . At one point I wondered if starting this poll/conversation was going to be helpful in the end but if we look at it as Lillias suggests we should all be comfortable with the way we can approach the challenge. For the next challenge I will rewrite the rules and offer suggestions/recommendations as to how to approach the challenge. I’m sure there is room for different approaches here… if you are of the persuasion that you don’t like or want to use actions etc; for whatever reason, then don’t use them. For others who find using such is helpful then as I said provided the original image isn’t turned into something it was never meant to be then I think that would be fine. And as Bailey has pointed out it was never meant to be a contest.....just the image submitter choosing his/her top three edits. So in the end I think it has been very helpful to hear what those of you who have commented had to say. If you have not commented yet and would like to add something.....feel free. Thanks everyone! |
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Post by Peterj on Jun 20, 2019 22:25:31 GMT
I think a description from the starter image submitter might be helpful; knowing that the interesting color contrasts, or the texture contrast, or how the puffy clouds caught their attention ... in short what made them take the photo? Having such insight might help structure the challenge.
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Post by hmca on Jun 22, 2019 16:03:29 GMT
Thanks to everyone who voted in the poll or took the time to add their thoughts to this thread.
I have tried to summarize your suggestions and will introduce the next RAW challenge with them in mind.
I think this should cover most of what has been discussed here. If there is something additional that you would like me to consider or that I may have forgotten, please feel free to comment.
When presenting the starter image, information will be provided as to why the photographer was drawn to the particular scene and if there is something in particular that they would like to see addressed with member edits.
It will be helpful if participants include a screenshot of their edits within the RAW converter of their choice along with the reasons for their edits.
Following their initial edits members may use whatever “tools" they wish to create an image that portrays their artistic vision for the image as long as the character of the original image is not lost.
Including information on plug-ins, actions, external editors, textures, sky replacements etc that were used will only help to inform members of the creative options that are available for someone
wishing to explore additional options. Including layer stacks may be something to consider when presenting a final edit.
At the end of the challenge the image creator will select their three favorite edits.
I still have two members who have PM'd me that they would like to contribute a dng for future challenges. If this is something you would like to do, please let me know.
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Fauxtoto
Established Forum Member
Quebec, Canada
Posts: 418
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by Fauxtoto on Jun 23, 2019 18:13:58 GMT
if there is something in particular that they would like to see addressed with member edits Would this prevent to post a submission that would have for purpose to bring forward essential elements or characteristics of the image, or a submission that would have for purpose to share a creative inspiration emerging from essential elements or characteristics of the image, in both case without adressing the particular issue raised by the original author? I do not think it should prevent such submissions, because part of the fun is to discover what others see in the image that can be improved or what they can create by inspiration from the essence of the image. There is a difference between explaining the context or reasons for an image and asking for something in particular with regard to this image. |
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Post by hmca on Jun 23, 2019 18:39:38 GMT
Thanks for your question, Maurice. I certainly didn't mean to imply that edits were to be confined to the submitting photographer's statement about his/her image but that they could request help with a particular concern.
It would then be up to the participants if they chose to respond to that concern or concentrate on their own creative vision for the image. What I think is most beneficial to this challenge is seeing the different approaches
that people take with the same image . I will have to think about how to reword the opening sentence. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
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