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Post by hmca on Jun 18, 2019 21:45:20 GMT
Before the next RAW Challenge, I have been thinking it would be helpful to get our members' ideas as to how they look to benefit from this challenge.
While I am creating a simple poll, my thought is that your comments and ideas would be more helpful than what can be addressed by the means of a poll. So after completing the poll, please take a minute to add your thoughts and read those presented by other participants. Feel free to add more than one comment. Perhaps after reading another member's idea, it might cause you to think of something that you hadn't considered. Hopefully, this will result in a challenge that reflects more of what you would like to see in the future. If you click on the poll you will see your results. Once you have voted they are registered. If you open the poll again your choices will still be visible to you. At the end of the poll all results will be visible. |
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Post by Bailey on Jun 18, 2019 23:44:07 GMT
Hi hmca, I think this poll and opportunity to post views/suggestions is a great idea  . First let me premise my comments below on my view that the RAW Challenge is not meant to be a competition, but an opportunity to show what can be done using the skills and creativity we have to create an image using the software we have and like using. At the end of the challenge the member who submitted the starter raw image posts their 3 favourite images and the reasons why. Perhaps another option could be that only after the submitter of the starter image has posted their 3 favourites, then other members could optionally also post their up to 3 favourites along with their reasons. I have ticked all of the boxes in the poll except restricting processing to PSE, but that doesn't mean that all of them should be mandatory because it won't always be practical to impose or police. For me, it would be beneficial to see screenshots of layer stacks, adjustment panels etc, where appropriate, along side the description of the post processing not necessarily to enable someone to reproduce the image exactly but to at least point interested visitors in the right direction to enable them to produce something similar. I ticked allowing skies to be replaced only because in some occasions the sky could be over exposed compared to the rest of the scene and replacing it could be easier and quicker than trying to restore the original sky. Although you couldn't enforce it, I feel a replaced sky must be a photo the person submitting an edited image in the challenge actually took themselves. The main things I would not like to see allowed are: 1. Any form of clip art added. 2. Third party actions or scripts that directly output any kind of special effect (colours, shapes, distortions). Third party actions or scripts that create say an adjustment layer without actually adjusting anything are ok because you then have to make the adjustment yourself using your skills and creativity. |
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Post by fotofrank on Jun 19, 2019 0:48:20 GMT
Today there are a lot of choices for Raw conversions and I would not want to limit it to just Elements or Photoshop.
The latest version of Elements allows you to select a profile to start your Raw conversion, the full version of Photoshop and Lightroom have had this feature for years. It also allows you to add more either user created or third party profiles. I am not sure of the need for eliminating actions as these perform the same thing as preset or profiles do.
Sky replacement on a Raw image - first it would really have to be a blown out image and I don't see any value in that, as it is not part of a Raw conversion.
Showing the Raw converter panel - may have some merit if both parties are using the same software and version.
Layer stacks really only show the settings on the layer selected and how many layers you may have used. Using a layer folder as some of us do, hides all of that.
The real question is this a Raw conversion or Raw creativity challenge.
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Post by hmca on Jun 19, 2019 1:11:25 GMT
Today there are a lot of choices for Raw conversions and I would not want to limit it to just Elements or Photoshop. My poll question may not have been clear.....it was meant to include all RAW processors....not limited to PS and PSE. Bailey and Frank, thanks for getting this started. Hopefully by the end of the challenge we will have a clearer idea of the answer to your final question, Frank. One of my reasons for creating this thread. |
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Post by Bailey on Jun 19, 2019 3:59:29 GMT
The real question is this a Raw conversion or Raw creativity challenge. Before the question can be answered properly, where post processing stops being a raw conversion and then becomes a raw creativity needs to be defined. I'm not sure where the line could be drawn. Personally I would prefer the challenge stays as is with no restriction between the two. |
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pontiac1940
CE Members
Posts: 6,352
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by pontiac1940 on Jun 19, 2019 4:56:29 GMT
I'm easy Helen.
I don't have much skill in the high-end adjustments. Whatever folks decide is fine.
Clive
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Post by michelb on Jun 19, 2019 7:00:49 GMT
I don't want to influence too much other people's comments, so I won't go into details about the detailed options of the poll. My feeling before that last challenge was that a number of submissions in the past had little relevance with shooting or processing raw. The first comments by Fotofrank and Bailey are already extremely rich and discussing them in detail would require a lot of discussions. Many of those fundamental questions could be discussed separately on the raw forum section. So, here are my present feelings: - Is it time to change something to the challenge? Yes. - Should the challenge be a competition? Why not? The judge (the former winner) can take into account the creativity, but also the usefulness of raw for the submissions. - I would be happy with nothing changed in the rules except for requiring a comment about the purpose of the raw processing of each submission. - If I had to choose a winner, I would take into account smart edits, good tips... and creativity.
Personal note:
As I said, it's good to have other raw converters than PSE or PS/LR, provided a comment about the pupose and the solution chosen are made clear for PSE users. Not only do I agree with Bailey's comments about Elements+, but I do use extensively the scripts 'edit in ACR' and "raw corrections" among others (not only landscapes). There is an ambiguity in the use of the ACR plugin in PSE: it also works with non raw files (same for Elements+), so it may be useful to stress when shooting raw is an advantage. In my view, anything using the ACR plugin or the related scripts in Elements+ is in the spirit of the challenge.
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Post by Lillias on Jun 19, 2019 10:38:54 GMT
At one time I thought it would be good if we could all do something using only PSE and the tools native to PSE – the idea being that we would all be on a level playing field. I've come to realise that idea was a bit naïve as apart from any other considerations different versions of PSE can alter what could be done depending on which version you had so the level playing field idea was already out of the window.
It seems that we all use so many different programmes with so many different options open to us that it would be hard to police who did what so with that in mind I come back to what Frank rightly says is the real question – Is this a Raw Conversion or a Raw Creativity challenge!
I think (maybe wrongly) that I have a bit of a literal mind and if it was decided that it was to be a Raw Conversion challenge then for me – 'everything' should be done within the Raw Conversion application and no changes of any kind made outwith that application.
If it was decided that it should be a Raw Creativity challenge then changes could be made after the Raw process had been applied.
Looking at the questions for the Poll I have ticked them all but obviously depending on the answer to the real question – Is this a Raw Conversion or a Raw Creativity challenge! – only certain answers would apply to the Conversion and certain ones to the Creativity challenge – I hope I am making sense.
At the end of the day my level of knowledge regarding this kind of thing is woefully inadequate so I am happy to go along with the consensus when decided what that will be.
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Post by Bailey on Jun 19, 2019 11:36:16 GMT
... I come back to what Frank rightly says is the real question – Is this a Raw Conversion or a Raw Creativity challenge! ... I think we all could be "over sciencing" this a bit because for me that is not the root question. The root question for me is "Is the RAW challenge a competition or just a fun challenge we can all potentially learn something from?". Until this is decided, then whether it is a Raw Conversion or a Raw Creativity challenge is irrelevant. If it is to be a competition then things will get messy really quickly when defining boundaries and rules around what is acceptable and what is not. If it is not a competition then the "rules/guidelines" can be much more flexible and the challenge can potentially be more fun for more members without the pressure of trying to outdo other entries. To be honest, I feel the challenge has been running well so far as is. I certainly don't see it as a competition. There is no way I could compete against most of the highly skilled scrapbookers and photography art creators on this forum. As a wise person once said........."if it ain't broken, don't fix it".........this challenge isn't broken from my point of view |
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Post by blackmutt on Jun 19, 2019 14:20:58 GMT
I have only basic skills on raw conversion although I shoot raw. In my mind, I have always looked at this challenge as just that - a challenge. No different than the IOW. If you get chosen by the host yipee if not so what. Pretty straight forward. We are shown/given a photo that is open to adjustments, individual interpretation and creativity. Some just change a highlight or two and others go all out. Explanations and or screen shots are useful for learning for sure! Not so sure about actions. I sort of feel like it's cheating when I use one and there's no showcase of any talent other than the action author. For not allowed items I would vote no to:
clip art
adding any items that aren't in the original
Panos like actions (sorry)
For me it boils down to not drastically changing the original photo as to not know what it was to begin with. I have always looked at this as "here's a photo that needs some work - how can I improve it." Of course with the prior approval to jazz it up a bit. Perhaps the challenge host should have a say it what is expected. For example - they may say here is a photo of X and it seems dark etc. I would like to see....
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Post by kdcintx on Jun 19, 2019 15:39:32 GMT
It seems like this challenge is really a raw creativity challenge. We need to be careful that it doesn't become too similar to the Endless Possibilities Challenge.
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Post by hmca on Jun 19, 2019 18:49:37 GMT
Thank you to everyone who has taken a minute to vote and/or add comments above. My original idea for this challenge was very close to what Judy has stated. I thought it was interesting to see how people would approach the same image. Of particular interest to me personally was creative cropping and artistic vision. It seemed we could all learn a lot from seeing and reading about what others looked to accomplish with their edits. Things seemed to be going along as I envisioned until I hit a stumbling block….actions. The rules to the challenge state that you are not supposed to use anyone else’s actions. All of a sudden that took on new meaning to me…..the idea was to use our own abilities to showcase what we could achieve; not what someone else can do for us through use of their actions. So for my definition “Action” was pretty much aligned with these members’ statements: Bailey said: Not allowed 2. Third party actions or scripts that directly output any kind of special effect (colours, shapes, distortions). Third party actions or scripts that create say an adjustment layer without actually adjusting anything are ok because you then have to make the adjustment yourself using your skills and creativity. Not so sure about actions. I sort of feel like it's cheating when I use one and there's no showcase of any talent other than the action author. But here’s where things got tricky. Couldn’t LR NIK presets be considered actions? I love Topaz Impression and wanted to create a painterly effect on the current image. But in fact wasn’t that an “action”. So now I’m somewhat at a loss as to how to move forward. I am open to suggestions as to how you feel about this. I am wondering if Topaz Impression in particular should be removed from the accepted plug-ins? Additionally, as Michel has pointed out the Camera Raw filter can be used on jpeg. images as well. Perhaps including a high resolution jpeg. image along with the dng. file would be helpful. So if you are visiting this thread again, and have an idea as to how you would like to see "Actions" defined I would appreciate your thoughts. |
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Post by srmoment on Jun 19, 2019 19:22:33 GMT
Under this definition, the following would not qualify:
Arkvis OilPaint and Sketch
Filter Forge
Topaz Impressions, Lens Effects, Glow and Simplify.
Any other software that would change the raw photo to make it more artistic, including black and white filters that add an artistic effect (versus changing the image to black and white).
...so basically what remains is the raw photo itself, edited to improve the image, but not to impart any artistic change (...except perhaps for texture).
Personally, I like to see both, and how they were made.
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Post by michelb on Jun 19, 2019 20:01:26 GMT
We can compare actions, scripts,'presets' and 'profiles'. A number of those are mainly 'recipes' of what you can achieve ourselves in various steps or by selecting a set of adjustment sliders. Just 'shortcuts' to obtain the same result, especially with 'presets'. Profiles like the 15 ones offered in B&W in ACR are a bit different, but they are available to everybody. Obviously a number of filters are too sophisticated to be considered like this. Their interest in a raw challenge depends on the need to optimize the raw conversion for the creative purpose. Any good tip to achieve the final result is welcome in my opinion. I don't think we should be too restrictive, but we should keep in mind the 'raw' specificity of this challenge.
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Post by blackmutt on Jun 19, 2019 20:59:26 GMT
I hear you Helen. I guess I would be leaning to saying no to "automation". That would include filters too I suppose. I think I see the challenge as improving the lighting, shadows etc. Not changing the photo perhaps. Think of it as "here's a snap I took of X, and improve it so I can show friends/family what it looked like". We do have to be careful not get to close to the creative challenge or endless possibilities challenge. All said and done - it doesn't matter to me really. i visit here to learn and have fun!!
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