stinson
Junior Forum Member
Posts: 251 
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by stinson on Jan 10, 2022 19:32:49 GMT
Michael, nice of you to try. Yes I was referring to the image of the three feathers that popcorn had posted. I have watched a gazillion videos on using refine edge over the years and watched the one you posted this morning. The intricacy of the feathers makes it very difficult to get a precise selection. Because the feathers themselves have black in them, viewing them on a black background will show the best end results IMHO. See my image above against a red background. I was just curious to see the results that one might get using refine edge against the red background. All this being said, what is important to remember when making a selection is to keep in mind the coloring of the background where it will be used. Maybe someone more advanced can comment on this, but I think the refine edge only works on the edges and does a decent job now that I have learned it. For the center of the feathers I am guessing you need either channels or a luminosity mask or a color aware refine mode that CC has per Sepiana screen shot above. |
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Post by hmca on Jan 10, 2022 19:44:57 GMT
but I think the refine edge only works on the edges and does a decent job now that I have learned it. I agree. However, when I posted this step in the process I had used:  Sepiana had noted..... You can skip this extra step in your workflow (even if you don't have Select Subject.) After you make your selection, bring up Refine Edge. Elements will give you several options how to display your selection while you fine-tune its edges -- displayed over a black or white background, red (Quick Mask), etc. You just choose which one works better for you; you can even toggle them. I would not have been able to get the results that I did using refine edge at that point. Just wondered if someone else might be able to get as good or better results using refine edge. |
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Post by hmca on Jan 10, 2022 20:01:23 GMT
Looking back through this thread, I am very impressed with the results that Jim got on his tree. Jim, how would you go about getting rid of the black on my feather selection above, if you don't mind sharing?
And I think I may have misunderstood Sepiana's post. I think she just might have meant that you can choose a red background to view your selection.
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Post by tourerjim on Jan 10, 2022 20:08:31 GMT
Michael, nice of you to try. Yes I was referring to the image of the three feathers that popcorn had posted. I have watched a gazillion videos on using refine edge over the years and watched the one you posted this morning. The intricacy of the feathers makes it very difficult to get a precise selection. Because the feathers themselves have black in them, viewing them on a black background will show the best end results IMHO. See my image above against a red background. I was just curious to see the results that one might get using refine edge against the red background. All this being said, what is important to remember when making a selection is to keep in mind the coloring of the background where it will be used. As you mentioned Helen, background coloring, leaks though the feathers, even at my best this is as good as it gets, replaced background without using refine tool, I've done this with magic wand selection I like to concentrate on background selection rather than the feathers.   |
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Post by hmca on Jan 10, 2022 20:18:16 GMT
Thanks, Jim. I like the creative way you approached this problem. I think we are all learning as a result of this thread so thanks for sharing with us, Popcorn.
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Post by tourerjim on Jan 10, 2022 20:30:33 GMT
Thanks, Jim. I like the creative way you approached this problem. I think we are all learning as a result of this thread so thanks for sharing with us, Popcorn. Helen, I've just worked on it little more and managed to bring a slight more of the feathers edge on the right hand pic. |
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Post by Sepiana on Jan 10, 2022 20:55:30 GMT
I think the refine edge only works on the edges and does a decent job now that I have learned it. For the center of the feathers I am guessing you need either channels or a luminosity mask or a color aware refine mode that CC has per Sepiana screen shot above Michael, You can fine-tune the center of a selection in Photoshop using Refine Edge without invoking channels, etc. (I do it all the time.) This will allow you to check the accuracy of the mask, find the missing areas in the center of the selection, and fix them. - Select the Black & White View Mode (View the selection as a mask). - Activate the Brush tool (B). - Paint over the problem areas. As a side note, you can use a similar technique to check the accuracy of a layer mask when selections are not involved. It works for both Elements and Photoshop. See . . . Checking the Accuracy of a Layer Mask. |
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popcorn
Junior Forum Member
Is this the correct forum to post this; but I am open to constructive feedback
Posts: 243
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Post by popcorn on Jan 11, 2022 11:38:37 GMT
Hi All,
Thank you all for your input. I have learnt an enormous amount about selection.
Refine edge is still a problem to me, all the tutorials I have watched, and there are many, seem to use a subject with a defined inner and outer edge.
Subjects like my feathers and trees with a lot of background showing through leaves etc. are a different kettle of fish.
I have been able to extract a lot more detail of the inner palm of the hand and the lower palm and fingers in the shadows of the Raw imager.
I now have a complete and more elegant hand, but it brings its problems.
My problem is now one of bringing up the shadows without blowing the midtones. If I get the hand right, the feather has lost it lustre.
If I select individual areas to apply separate adjustments to, I struggle to remove tell-tale boundary lines.
I have never spent so much time on a single image before!!
I am now summarizing all the information that is contained in this thread, I am sure I will be referring to it often in the future.
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stinson
Junior Forum Member
Posts: 251
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by stinson on Jan 11, 2022 12:38:01 GMT
popcorn your current problem isn't a major one. Once you have your masks, apply different tonality to two layers with the inverted masks. Please post what you summarize as others can learn from that two.
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Post by tourerjim on Jan 11, 2022 13:54:28 GMT
Hi All, Thank you all for your input. I have learnt an enormous amount about selection. Refine edge is still a problem to me, all the tutorials I have watched, and there are many, seem to use a subject with a defined inner and outer edge. Subjects like my feathers and trees with a lot of background showing through leaves etc. are a different kettle of fish. I have been able to extract a lot more detail of the inner palm of the hand and the lower palm and fingers in the shadows of the Raw imager. I now have a complete and more elegant hand, but it brings its problems. My problem is now one of bringing up the shadows without blowing the midtones. If I get the hand right, the feather has lost it lustre. If I select individual areas to apply separate adjustments to, I struggle to remove tell-tale boundary lines. I have never spent so much time on a single image before!! I am now summarizing all the information that is contained in this thread, I am sure I will be referring to it often in the future. With my method you might want to use hue/sats to move the image colors as far away from BG as you can without any lose of edges, magic wand the BG and select layer mask, I sometime could end up with large number of layers but you will start to find best selection of the layers. |
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Post by tourerjim on Jan 11, 2022 14:03:57 GMT
Heres a screen shot of an image with BG removed, layers on the side of image may help, by using layers whites, blacks & reds helps to get best results 
And below is the start image, by using hue/sates you can flatten the BG and ie like a strong pink then use magic selection, next add layer mask to it, then copy layer and delete mask (apply) then make copy layer again and with with hue/sats reduce sats to black n white, then with Levels, move upper slider to make image as back as possible, then make magic selection, I'm not the best for explaining but hope this helps  |
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Post by Sepiana on Jan 11, 2022 17:55:54 GMT
Refine edge is still a problem to me, all the tutorials I have watched, and there are many, seem to use a subject with a defined inner and outer edge. Subjects like my feathers and trees with a lot of background showing through leaves etc. are a different kettle of fish. popcorn, don't give up! I believe in you!Making that perfect selection when feathers, flyaway hair, fuzzy fur, etc. are involved is not an easy task. When I first got PSE 11, I followed the tutorials below to learn how to use this new Refine Edge. They are about fine-tuning hair selections but the suggestions/steps will also apply to feather selections. (I myself follow them when tackling feathers.)Making Killer Selections in Photoshop Elements 11 (with Matt Kloskowski) Selecting Fine Detail Using Refine Edge with Photoshop Elements 11 (with Bob Gager from Adobe) When it comes to making selections involving bushes, trees, foliage, etc., I also use a Threshold adjustment layer. This technique is for replacing skies but you can also use it to tackle such selections. It creates a very detailed mask, which you can invert and use as a mask on your image.I follow this tutorial in the PET magazine (free download). I have used this technique many times; it is very effective. You may want to give it a chance. Banish Boring Skies, Photoshop Elements Techniques, v.19, no.5, September/October 2012, p4NOTE:This tutorial is written for Elements 9/10. Layer masks were introduced in v9. As you mentioned in another thread you also have Elements 10, the interface will be familiar. |
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