gfmucci
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Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 4, 2021 12:32:27 GMT
When downloading images via USB from camera, duplicate images appear in the organizer.
For example, if I download image 3542, 3542 and 3542-1 are created in the organizer. 3442-1 was never in the camera.
What might cause this?
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Post by michelb on Jan 4, 2021 16:22:39 GMT
When downloading images via USB from camera, duplicate images appear in the organizer.
For example, if I download image 3542, 3542 and 3542-1 are created in the organizer. 3442-1 was never in the camera.
What might cause this?
Windows does not allow storing twice the same file name in the same subfolder. On the other hand, the organizer checks for each imported item if a file with the same name is already present in the same subfolder and if it is present in the current catalog. If the file is not already in the catalog, it renames the file with a -1 suffix and registers the file in the catalog. If it's there in the catalog (meaning same date_taken and file size in kB), then it skips the file in the import and you get a report message saying that some files have not been imported because they are not supported or they are already in the catalog.
So, importing the same file twice with two different catalogs may be the reason; I guess there are other similar situations.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 4, 2021 17:35:22 GMT
When downloading images via USB from camera, duplicate images appear in the organizer.
For example, if I download image 3542, 3542 and 3542-1 are created in the organizer. 3442-1 was never in the camera.
What might cause this?
Windows does not allow storing twice the same file name in the same subfolder. On the other hand, the organizer checks for each imported item if a file with the same name is already present in the same subfolder and if it is present in the current catalog. If the file is not already in the catalog, it renames the file with a -1 suffix and registers the file in the catalog. If it's there in the catalog (meaning same date_taken and file size in kB), then it skips the file in the import and you get a report message saying that some files have not been imported because they are not supported or they are already in the catalog.
So, importing the same file twice with two different catalogs may be the reason; I guess there are other similar situations.
So, the fact that I have two catalogs causes this?
If so, how can I tell which catalog to delete?
Or is there a way to tell the organizer I only want to save in one catalog or the other.
I just downloaded 70 images into the organizer. There were duplicates of each one, and this time there was no "-1" after any, just duplicate image numbers.
Bottom line question: How can I download images without duplicates being created?
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Post by michelb on Jan 4, 2021 18:07:47 GMT
Windows does not allow storing twice the same file name in the same subfolder. On the other hand, the organizer checks for each imported item if a file with the same name is already present in the same subfolder and if it is present in the current catalog. If the file is not already in the catalog, it renames the file with a -1 suffix and registers the file in the catalog. If it's there in the catalog (meaning same date_taken and file size in kB), then it skips the file in the import and you get a report message saying that some files have not been imported because they are not supported or they are already in the catalog.
So, importing the same file twice with two different catalogs may be the reason; I guess there are other similar situations.
So, the fact that I have two catalogs causes this?
If so, how can I tell which catalog to delete?
Or is there a way to tell the organizer I only want to save in one catalog or the other.
I just downloaded 70 images into the organizer. There were duplicates of each one, and this time there was no "-1" after any, just duplicate image numbers.
Bottom line question: How can I download images without duplicates being created?
Yes, it's easy to reproduce by importing the same batch of files from your camera in the same subfolder successively from one or another catalog. Think that you are not importing "in the organizer", you are importing in a catalog. The organizer does not know in which catalog you have imported files, you must have a catalog open when you import. The information is in this catalog. By the way, that's a reason why it's highly recommended to use only one catalog, unless the data you are managing is totally distinct (pro or family for instance). You can go to the explorer from the organizer, not the other way round.
If you download twice and you don't see a "-1" suffix, that generally means that you have imported in different subfolders since Windows does not allow this.
In the organizer preferences, section 'camera or card reader' there is the option by default 'copy new files only...' That option is also accessible from the downloader window. If you still get duplicates when importing from camera or card reader, we'll have to look at the details. For instance it seems that some changes in the import options (red eye removal...) may show the file with a different size. Really, I have been using the downloader from the beginning and I am never annoyed by duplicates. However, there are many posts on all forums about getting duplicates.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 4, 2021 20:29:16 GMT
So, the fact that I have two catalogs causes this?Â
If so, how can I tell which catalog to delete?Â
Or is there a way to tell the organizer I only want to save in one catalog or the other.
I just downloaded 70 images into the organizer. There were duplicates of each one, and this time there was no "-1" after any, just duplicate image numbers.
Bottom line question:Â How can I download images without duplicates being created?
Yes, it's easy to reproduce by importing the same batch of files from your camera in the same subfolder successively from one or another catalog. Think that you are not importing "in the organizer", you are importing in a catalog. The organizer does not know in which catalog you have imported files, you must have a catalog open when you import. The information is in this catalog. By the way, that's a reason why it's highly recommended to use only one catalog, unless the data you are managing is totally distinct (pro or family for instance). You can go to the explorer from the organizer, not the other way round.
If you download twice and you don't see a "-1" suffix, that generally means that you have imported in different subfolders since Windows does not allow this.
In the organizer preferences, section 'camera or card reader' there is the option by default 'copy new files only...' That option is also accessible from the downloader window. If you still get duplicates when importing from camera or card reader, we'll have to look at the details. For instance it seems that some changes in the import options (red eye removal...) may show the file with a different size. Really, I have been using the downloader from the beginning and I am never annoyed by duplicates. However, there are many posts on all forums about getting duplicates.
The "copy new files only" box was checked. I still get duplicates. "Red eye removal" is NOT checked. Many are annoyed by these duplicates per the Adobe Support Community and yours truly. As they say on tear-jerker soap operas: "It just ain't right, no sir, it just ain't right."
Here is one example from the Adobe Support site:
imjack2 LATEST
Explorer , Oct 26, 2020
I too have observed this problem with EO 2021. As I have still EO2020 installed I downloaded via USB cable also the same images and videos from my iPhone7+ (iOS 13.7) using EO2020 on a Windows 10 64bit, version 1909. No duplicates were downloaded!!
So apparently this is a newly introduce quirk in E2021.
And neither does it occur in my 10-year old Elements 9. |
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 6, 2021 15:58:22 GMT
Yes, it's easy to reproduce by importing the same batch of files from your camera in the same subfolder successively from one or another catalog. Think that you are not importing "in the organizer", you are importing in a catalog. The organizer does not know in which catalog you have imported files, you must have a catalog open when you import. The information is in this catalog. By the way, that's a reason why it's highly recommended to use only one catalog, unless the data you are managing is totally distinct (pro or family for instance). You can go to the explorer from the organizer, not the other way round.
If you download twice and you don't see a "-1" suffix, that generally means that you have imported in different subfolders since Windows does not allow this.
In the organizer preferences, section 'camera or card reader' there is the option by default 'copy new files only...' That option is also accessible from the downloader window. If you still get duplicates when importing from camera or card reader, we'll have to look at the details. For instance it seems that some changes in the import options (red eye removal...) may show the file with a different size. Really, I have been using the downloader from the beginning and I am never annoyed by duplicates. However, there are many posts on all forums about getting duplicates.
The "copy new files only" box was checked. I still get duplicates. "Red eye removal" is NOT checked. Many are annoyed by these duplicates per the Adobe Support Community and yours truly. As they say on tear-jerker soap operas: "It just ain't right, no sir, it just ain't right."
Here is one example from the Adobe Support site:
imjack2 LATEST
Explorer , Oct 26, 2020
I too have observed this problem with EO 2021. As I have still EO2020 installed I downloaded via USB cable also the same images and videos from my iPhone7+ (iOS 13.7) using EO2020 on a Windows 10 64bit, version 1909. No duplicates were downloaded!!
So apparently this is a newly introduce quirk in E2021.
And neither does it occur in my 10-year old Elements 9. So, last night I spent a few hours contemplating this software. I actually put in a request to Amazon to return the Elements 2021 I purchased there for two reasons:
* The Organizer's loading conflict with the auto Task Bar setting. * The unresolved glitch of downloading duplicate images into the Organizer that doesn't appear to have any solution.
During this several hour period I did these things:
* Uninstalled and reinstalled Elements 2021. No effect on duplicate image downloads.
* Eliminated the embedded Windows Photos app from my system - it opened a big window every time I wanted to download photos into Elements, not good. This also had no effect on Elements 2021 duplicate image downloads. * Explored several additional free and paid photo organizers/editors. None of these, including Elements 9, download duplicate images from my camera. Only Elements 2021 does this. * I compared several features of these programs with E2021, including search features and overall ease of operation.
Here is my semi-final decision:
On balance, the features of the E2021 outweigh its several quirks. So unless something else weird crops up, I'm keeping it.
No other app that I tried can compete in terms of its search function (phenomenal), its guided edits, and the manner it downloads and organizes my photos. Part of this preference obviously has to do with my years of familiarity with this app.
While other editors may have more refined processing settings, I can always go another layer down and apply RAW setting to .jpgs which allows some worthwhile tweaks if the basic settings don't do enough.
No software is perfect. So I will take the extra several minutes and unclick my download duplicates each time I download a batch of photos, hoping that Adobe will eventually recognize and find it in their best interests to correct this duplicate glitch or that I or someone else comes up with a solution.
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Post by michelb on Jan 6, 2021 17:55:36 GMT
To summarize:
Both issues are very different, they need to be weighted separately: - The first one only affects a tiny part of PSE users and now the workaround has been found which lets you use totally PSE at the cost of lost comfort. There is hope that it will solved in a future update or version. - I think we can agree that your precise issue about the downloader and the import feature of the organizer is mysterious, not really defined and reproducible. There are new testimonies and comparisons which seem to point to a new incompatibility when importing from Apple phones; some compare the different behavior of PSE 2020 vs 2021, other ones find that there are the same incompatibilities with other editors than PSE and that they have to use Apple's own downloading solutions to first have the files transferred to your computer so that you can import 'from files and folders'. I don't know anything about Macs, so the conclusions may vary depending on your computer OS and OS version.
What I would try in priority is to import a set of files already imported in your folders (I assume without duplication) and verify if my expectation is right: no duplication the first time you import from files and folders and possible duplication if you-reimport a second time in the same catalog. That would not explain the issue with the downloader, but that might suggest a workaround based on downloading to the computer via the OS or third-party available utilities.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 6, 2021 19:00:52 GMT
To summarize:
Both issues are very different, they need to be weighted separately: - The first one only affects a tiny part of PSE users and now the workaround has been found which lets you use totally PSE at the cost of lost comfort. There is hope that it will solved in a future update or version. - I think we can agree that your precise issue about the downloader and the import feature of the organizer is mysterious, not really defined and reproducible. There are new testimonies and comparisons which seem to point to a new incompatibility when importing from Apple phones; some compare the different behavior of PSE 2020 vs 2021, other ones find that there are the same incompatibilities with other editors than PSE and that they have to use Apple's own downloading solutions to first have the files transferred to your computer so that you can import 'from files and folders'. I don't know anything about Macs, so the conclusions may vary depending on your computer OS and OS version.
What I would try in priority is to import a set of files already imported in your folders (I assume without duplication) and verify if my expectation is right: no duplication the first time you import from files and folders and possible duplication if you-reimport a second time in the same catalog. That would not explain the issue with the downloader, but that might suggest a workaround based on downloading to the computer via the OS or third-party available utilities.
"...downloader and the import feature of the organizer is mysterious, not really defined and reproducible."
This quirk is indeed mysterious (the cause is unknown), but it is "defined" and it is "reproducible." The cause is not defined, that's why its a mystery.
But the result is clearly defined: Duplicate image downloads into the Organizer of Elements 2021 from a broad variety of camera sources. In my case I get the same duplicate download result from three different cameras: Samsung S9 phone, Fuji Finepix HS50EXR, and Nikon Coolpix P950. So a good assumption would be that the download duplication is NOT caused by any particular brand of camera. And the duplicate downloads are specific to Elements 2021. Neither Elements 9 nor any of the four other brands of download organizers I've recently used download duplicate images.
The double image download is most definitely reproducible. Every, every, every download via the Elements 2021 Organizer from all of the three cameras I downloaded from provide the same predictable, reproducible result. Perhaps you meant that this result is not reproducible in EVERY system upon which Elements 2021 is installed - we don't know enough about the variety of system configuarations to make a determination. But it occurs in enough diverse situations to consider this to be a fairly ubiquitous problem.
I believe I've at least revealed what might have been considered to be several potential causes of conflict but are not: My Catalog structure is innocent (my E9 doesn't do it); potential Windows Photos conflict is innocent (no change after being uninstalled); other similar apps don't do it aren't guilty; uninstall/reinstall Elements 2021 (no change after reinstall).
And last, conducting your suggested experiment, I downloaded a new image from one of my cameras onto a Windows 10 desktop file and sucked that into the Element 2021 Organizer. Correctly, only one image appeared. So until the glitch is repaired, while this download process is a couple of extra steps, it may beat un-clicking dozens of new photos downloaded directly to the Organizer from the camera.
I assume my desktop file can be eliminated after it finds its way into the Organizer.
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Post by michelb on Jan 6, 2021 20:01:59 GMT
Downloading a big batch of files with the Windows Explorer directly to a temporarty folder, then 'importing or getting files from files or folders would be a two-steps process, but not much longer than the direct download from camera or card reader in the organizer. I imagine that users who don't rely on the organizer have to do this anyway. I know that for some users, the ability to cull the images in the batch is also important before 'importing = registering' in the catalog. Also, there is a growing trend not to import from camera or card reader with photos from phones. That's what I do: the photos from the phones of my wife and myself are transferred from Google or Dropbox directly to my computer. The downloader is not used in that case.
So, since I am unable to reproduce your issue, I would thank you to have the patience to test the 'Import from Files and Folders solution' with a test batch of new pictures not already in your current catalog. Of course, the organizer lets you select files 'by import batch' to delete them afterwards. You could also use a new empty catalog for your tests to avoid spoiling your library. Users choosing this import option either create their import subfolders before the download or use the organizer to move files from the temporary import folder to the final folder destination.
If such a test does not create duplicate entries in the catalog the first time, try the same import session another time to see if the organizer filters duplicates as expected.
For me, the drawback of not using the 'import from camera or card reader' is the lack of useful options like renaming or creating an automatic date based subfolder hierarchies. If you don't use them regularly, that's not a big deal.
Keep in mind that my main sources of information about such issues are - my own experience - the feedback in various forums; that is, the same as yours. My personal experience is limited (I have never met this issue) but I am quite sure that the downloading issue is not as widespread as you think, otherwise I can assure you that you would get much, much more complaints in all forums. By the way, did you notice that there are no recent posts about the new issues in the present forum? Your contribution is important and welcome, and I am curious to know more about your next experiments and conclusions.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 6, 2021 20:44:14 GMT
Your contribution is important and welcome, and I am curious to know more about your next experiments and conclusions.
Yup, I'm invested now. I've got "skin in the game." I like the other features too much to abandon the app. So I would really like to find a "non-work-around" solution, one that accomplishes what the app is designed to do and do what I paid for without forcing me to take extra steps.
Just because others don't mind downloading to their system files instead of into the Organizer, that is their choice - even when the Organizer downloaded properly. But that is not what I signed up for.
*****
"So, since I am unable to reproduce your issue, I would thank you to have the patience to test the 'Import from Files and Folders solution' with a test batch of new pictures not already in your current catalog."
I thought I did that. I imported the one new photo (not in my current Catalog) from my camera onto my desktop, and then brought it into the Organizer via the "Files and Folders" import method. It was only one photo - I don't see why it would make any difference if it was 50. As I mentioned, that test worked properly - just the one copy showed in the Organizer after downloading from the desktop.
Did I understand your original request correctly?
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Post by michelb on Jan 6, 2021 22:28:35 GMT
Your contribution is important and welcome, and I am curious to know more about your next experiments and conclusions.
Yup, I'm invested now. I've got "skin in the game." I like the other features too much to abandon the app. So I would really like to find a "non-work-around" solution, one that accomplishes what the app is designed to do and do what I paid for without forcing me to take extra steps.
Just because others don't mind downloading to their system files instead of into the Organizer, that is their choice - even when the Organizer downloaded properly. But that is not what I signed up for.
*****
"So, since I am unable to reproduce your issue, I would thank you to have the patience to test the 'Import from Files and Folders solution' with a test batch of new pictures not already in your current catalog."
I thought I did that. I imported the one new photo (not in my current Catalog) from my camera onto my desktop, and then brought it into the Organizer via the "Files and Folders" import method. It was only one photo - I don't see why it would make any difference if it was 50. As I mentioned, that test worked properly - just the one copy showed in the Organizer after downloading from the desktop.
Did I understand or original request correctly?
What I want to check is not only if there is a workaround (which would not be negligible) but also at what stage the duplication occurs. There are distinct processes in the organizer to download files from the camera or card reader, it's the dowloader (which is very similar in other Adobe apps) and there is the registering (and filtering process) into the database of a catalog. The downloader itself is subject to many external conditions as in all alternative downloaders. The registering and filtering process is mainly an Adobe only process and it is easier to reproduce and troubleshoot such issues. I hope we can confirm that only the downloading phase creates real duplicates on your drive. In which case, the physical dupes will necessarily be scanned and filtered or not in the next process. I really don't see how single files physically on the drive could be duplicated in the database. The filtering algorithms are the same since nearly 20 years. They are not perfect (nor fully documented) and account for the majority of complaints from the beginning of the organizer. The known issues are in the downloading stage. In the 'get files from files or folders', the filtering is able to scan my subfolders for a full year simply by importing from its top folder. If I have missed importing say one hundred files among five thousands, it will find only those new files and ignore the rest. That's the reason I don't use the 'watched folders' background service.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 7, 2021 3:34:34 GMT
Yup, I'm invested now. I've got "skin in the game." I like the other features too much to abandon the app. So I would really like to find a "non-work-around" solution, one that accomplishes what the app is designed to do and do what I paid for without forcing me to take extra steps.
Just because others don't mind downloading to their system files instead of into the Organizer, that is their choice - even when the Organizer downloaded properly. But that is not what I signed up for.
*****
"So, since I am unable to reproduce your issue, I would thank you to have the patience to test the 'Import from Files and Folders solution' with a test batch of new pictures not already in your current catalog."
I thought I did that. I imported the one new photo (not in my current Catalog) from my camera onto my desktop, and then brought it into the Organizer via the "Files and Folders" import method. It was only one photo - I don't see why it would make any difference if it was 50. As I mentioned, that test worked properly - just the one copy showed in the Organizer after downloading from the desktop.
Did I understand or original request correctly?
What I want to check is not only if there is a workaround (which would not be negligible) but also at what stage the duplication occurs.
There are distinct processes in the organizer to download files from the camera or card reader, it's the downloader (which is very similar in other Adobe apps) and there is the registering (and filtering process) into the database of a catalog. The downloader itself is subject to many external conditions as in all alternative downloaders.
The registering and filtering process is mainly an Adobe only process and it is easier to reproduce and troubleshoot such issues. I hope we can confirm that only the downloading phase creates real duplicates on your drive. In which case, the physical dupes will necessarily be scanned and filtered or not in the next process.
I really don't see how single files physically on the drive could be duplicated in the database. The filtering algorithms are the same since nearly 20 years. They are not perfect (nor fully documented) and account for the majority of complaints from the beginning of the organizer.
The known issues are in the downloading stage. In the 'get files from files or folders', the filtering is able to scan my sub-folders for a full year simply by importing from its top folder. If I have missed importing say one hundred files among five thousands, it will find only those new files and ignore the rest. That's the reason I don't use the 'watched folders' background service.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at in the above reply. But just to clarify what my download duplicates look like on my Organizer Import screen, here is a screenshot. There was only one each of those in my camera. And it works the same way with different cameras. It does not do this in Elements 9 or Lightroom with the same arrangement of Catalogs:  |
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Post by michelb on Jan 7, 2021 8:30:08 GMT
Thanks,
I have never seen this.
The selection dialog of the downloader: - should work the same on other PSE or LR versions - should already hide duplicates compared with the currently open catalog according to your preferences.
- should not show the same filename from the same subfolder in the card (unless they are in different subfolders of the card)
That dialog is just like a browser which reads the card, at that stage, nothing is downloaded, nothing is 'registered' in the catalog.
So, that's what should be investigated in priority. Please confirm if you are connecting directly to the camera or if you are downloading from a card reader? Do you see the duplicates on the card from the Windows Explorer? Logically, they are not supposed to be in the same subfolder of the DCIM section. Do you get the same duplication using another card reader?
Also, you have posted in the Elements user to user forum giving a link to the current conversation here. I am not sure many other users or Adobe staff will come here, so I advise you to post this very important piece of information in the Adobe forum.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 7, 2021 17:43:57 GMT
Thanks,
I have never seen this.
The selection dialog of the downloader: - should work the same on other PSE or LR versions - should already hide duplicates compared with the currently open catalog according to your preferences.
- should not show the same filename from the same subfolder in the card (unless they are in different subfolders of the card)
That dialog is just like a browser which reads the card, at that stage, nothing is downloaded, nothing is 'registered' in the catalog.
So, that's what should be investigated in priority. Please confirm if you are connecting directly to the camera or if you are downloading from a card reader? Do you see the duplicates on the card from the Windows Explorer? Logically, they are not supposed to be in the same subfolder of the DCIM section. Do you get the same duplication using another card reader?
Also, you have posted in the Elements user to user forum giving a link to the current conversation here. I am not sure many other users or Adobe staff will come here, so I advise you to post this very important piece of information in the Adobe forum.
The camera downloaded via a USB cable.
Here is a screenshot of the SD card inserted directly into the computer's SD slot as seen from the Windows Organizer window...
Here is a screenshot of the SD card via the USB cable from the camera as seen from the Windows Organizer window...
I do not discern any duplicates in either of the upload modes from the SD card.
Regarding the Adobe User Group, the link back to this site includes all new posts, so Adobe folks can be updated to what is added here.
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gfmucci
Junior Forum Member
Learning PSE2021, coming from PSE9. Just received new Nikon P950.
Posts: 89
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Post by gfmucci on Jan 7, 2021 18:07:57 GMT
I just noticed something in the direct "card in the computer slot" download. Note the "Type" column with four entries of "Adobe Photoshop Elements Image 19". Why would a photo taken in the camera refer to image "Type" as "Adobe?" Was there a "feedback loop" of some sort bouncing off the camera and reloading onto the Elements app? Or is that a normal "Type" description for something downloaded from the camera into Elements?
This is a screen shot showing the Properties of the first image...
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