|
|
Post by michelb on Feb 11, 2019 20:27:14 GMT
Fauxtoto, We are not forgetting the issue. I must say that the way Microsoft manages colours in Photos and Windows Viewers is still mysterious for me, even after spending some time to understand what is said about it in the Internet and by testing by myself and checking profiles in the files themselves (exif tool). What I can say from your Windows screenshots is that you have the default settings, which should be ok. I had found a tutorial in French about the best settings... which I can no longer find now!
The advice was this setting:
We all agree that the files exported from LR and reimported are fully recognized, no information about the color profile is lost. Sepiana and myself find that Photos shows a correct (if not strictly identical) look of the Prophoto file. Nothing like the discoulored result from non colour-managed browsers in this case. You find a distinct colour shift from yellow to red (is it also more saturation?) Why would Photos show differently in your computer than with ours?
My first question is to check the LR option in the export: was it exported in ProPhoto or aRGB, sRGB? It's easy to check the profile when opening the file in PSE, PS or LR. With properly tagged Prophoto, no issue in Photos for us.
I was wondering about the lack of calibration in your case. You are right it should not explain the difference between LR and Photos. For further tests, I have used PS which offers many more options than PSE to convert or assign profiles. For instance this test: conversion of the prophoto test image to aRGB - remove profile - assign aRGB or my monitor profile: no visible colour shift, even if my monitor is not wide gamut. Tip: we can work with the test file by Andrew Rodney:
In my experience, the only situation in which I find a very significant oversaturation in conversions/assignment from an original ProPhoto is when: it has been converted to another space like aRGB, Display or sRGB and then assigned a ProPhoto profile. That is equivalent to applying the conversion twice.
To summarize: we could work on the same test ProPhoto file, we need to be sure what profile is embedded (tagged) into your resulting LR export.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sepiana on Feb 11, 2019 22:19:40 GMT
We all agree that the files exported from LR and reimported are fully recognized, no information about the color profile is lost. Sepiana and myself find that Photos shows a correct (if not strictly identical) look of the Prophoto file. Nothing like the discoulored result from non colour-managed browsers in this case. You find a distinct colour shift from yellow to red (is it also more saturation?) Why would Photos show differently in your computer than with ours? My first question is to check the LR option in the export: was it exported in ProPhoto or aRGB, sRGB? It's easy to check the profile when opening the file in PSE, PS or LR. With properly tagged Prophoto, no issue in Photos for us. I was wondering about the lack of calibration in your case. You are right it should not explain the difference between LR and Photos. For further tests, I have used PS which offers many more options than PSE to convert or assign profiles. For instance this test: conversion of the prophoto test image to aRGB - remove profile - assign aRGB or my monitor profile: no visible colour shift, even if my monitor is not wide gamut. In my experience, the only situation in which I find a very significant oversaturation in conversions/assignment from an original ProPhoto is when: it has been converted to another space like aRGB, Display or sRGB and then assigned a ProPhoto profile. That is equivalent to applying the conversion twice.
Michel, excellent troubleshooting! I agree. The key variables to find the answer to Fauxtoto 's question seem to be . . .
- The LR color space he used when exporting to Photos. - Lack of calibration should not explain the differences he is seeing when going Lightroom > Photos.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 11, 2019 22:48:40 GMT
I think you should be on the right track now. I raised the same concern earlier in the thread about the embedded colour space. Michel, excellent troubleshooting! I agree. The key variables to find the answer to Fauxtoto 's question seem to be . . . - The LR color space he used when exporting to Photos. - Lack of calibration should not explain the differences he is seeing when going Lightroom > Photos.
From your description of colour mismatch between what you see in LR and Photos, that is exactly what can be expected if one or more of the following is the case. 1. The colour space used to create the image is not embedded in the exported jpg. 2. MS Photos is not colour managed. I would be very surprised if it wasn't. 3. Corrupted colour space/profile files. 4. Other factors but there is not enough information in your posts for me to determine what they might be. As I posted earlier, the first thing I would eliminate as a cause is a missing embedded profile in your exported jpg. Have you embedded the correct colour space/profile into your jpg?If he used ProPhoto in LR and either not embedded it or if MS Photos is not properly coloured managed, then MS Photos might assume the jpg is in sRGB when it is actually ProPhoto. |
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 11, 2019 23:20:01 GMT
Hi Fauxtoto,
A few points to consider maybe:
1. Are you noticing this colour mismatch between LR and MS Photos in other images as well?
2. This is up to you obviously, but if you are comfortable uploading the full-sized jpg so someone else with LR and MS Photos can download it to see if they see the same colour mismatch in their MS Photos and LR, this will help determine if maybe there is something unusual with the actual jpg file.
3. What versions of LR and MS Photos are you using. They might be different to what sepiana and michelb are using.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sepiana on Feb 11, 2019 23:33:30 GMT
As pointed out by Sepiana , michelb and Andy , the only question here is why on one specific computer (desktop) with one specific screen (not calibrated) the colours of a picture contained in one specific file do not look the same when the file is opened in Lightroom (LR6) compared to when it is opened in Windows 10 Photos software.
Fauxtoto, your answer to the question Michel asked (which I second) will definitely help with the troubleshooting.
My first question is to check the LR option in the export: was it exported in ProPhoto or aRGB, sRGB? It's easy to check the profile when opening the file in PSE, PS or LR. With properly tagged Prophoto, no issue in Photos for us.
Lending you a helping hand . . .
|
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 11, 2019 23:55:00 GMT
[/offtopic] Fauxtoto, your answer to the question Michel asked (which I second) will definitely help with the troubleshooting.
...was it exported in ProPhoto or aRGB, sRGB? It's easy to check the profile when opening the file in PSE, PS or LR. With properly tagged Prophoto, no issue in Photos for us. Thank you for recognising the concern I originally raised earlier. Hopefully you will find the solution to Fauxtoto's issue. [/offtopic] |
|
|
|
Post by michelb on Feb 12, 2019 8:50:19 GMT
[/offtopic] Fauxtoto, your answer to the question Michel asked (which I second) will definitely help with the troubleshooting.
...was it exported in ProPhoto or aRGB, sRGB? It's easy to check the profile when opening the file in PSE, PS or LR. With properly tagged Prophoto, no issue in Photos for us. Thank you for recognising the concern I originally raised earlier. Hopefully you will find the solution to Fauxtoto's issue. [/offtopic] I have always taken that into account.
Today I wonder: - I have tested all the various export options in LR: They are all recognized in my version of Photos, even if the profile is removed. - Exporting from LR always embbeds a profile. That explains LR recognizes all the export options.
- If the profile is removed (from PS or PSE for instance), I get the same result from either LR or Photos, same change of look, especially with ProPhoto.
- If the profile which is removed is ProPhoto, the change of look by assuming sRGB results in strong desaturation, not color shift or oversaturation.
You are right in asking if we are using the same versions of LR and Photos. I am on the latest versions for both.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 12, 2019 20:21:40 GMT
You are right in asking if we are using the same versions of LR and Photos. I am on the latest versions for both. Thank you michelb. It will be interesting to see if the colour mismatch exists with all photos and hopefully he will upload the problem jpg. |
|
Fauxtoto
Established Forum Member
Quebec, Canada
Posts: 440
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
|
Post by Fauxtoto on Feb 12, 2019 21:55:07 GMT
Hi Sepiana, michelb and Bailey. Thanks again. Round 2! Following your comments and questions, hoping it helps : • I use Photos more like a browser that anything else, so I never paid too much attention on the colours. This time the mismatch was more obvious because I wanted to have an overall yellow effect such as at sun rise. The colour mismatch is not like over saturation. The intensity of the colour is about the same. Instead of having an overall yellow tint, the general look is more like kind of sepia, as if it was shifting towards the red in the colour wheel. • From the screen below, it seems that the file was exported in sRGB. I changed that setting and exported in ProPhoto RGB. The same result occurred. No difference between exporting in sRGB or ProPhoto RGB. farm8.staticflickr.com/7813/47075102011_00278efcc2_z.jpg • In LR Library, metadata panel, I don’t see anything, EXIF and IPTC, that would give any indication concerning the colour space. • I am using LR 6.14, Camera Raw 10.1 and Photos Microsoft 2019.18114.17710.0 • The image in question is the last one I posted in my gallery, entitled “Emerging”. There, the colours look O.K. to me. I go through Flickr to post on PSE&M. • In a private mail, I am sending you access in Dropbox to the file itself that contains the image, and to a screen shot I took showing how it looks to me in Photos, in LR and in PSE&M. I do not know to what extent you will see the colours as I see them. • I appreciate your concern. The issue may be intriguing. I also understand that there are limits to the energy it may deserve. If you feel it could be useful not just to me but also to others, I remain available if you have any questions. • I already am far beyond the humble limits of my knowledge and technical abilities. And still happy! |
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 12, 2019 23:15:20 GMT
Hi Fauxtoto, Thank you very much for the link to the actual jpeg. I am not a LR user so hopefully michelb or sepiana will open the image in their LR and MS Photos to see if they too see the colour shift in Photos. In the mean time, using exiftool I can see the jpeg file has the sRGB color space embedded in it. When I open the jpg in PSE 14 I can also see the image file has the sRGB colour space embedded.
One thing you need to be aware of.....assigning a colour space to be embedded into an export file (jpg or whatever) does not actually convert the RGB pixel data to that colour space. So for example, if while editing a photo (in LR or whatever) you are working in ProPhoto then you first have to convert the image to sRGB if sRGB is the colour space you want to embed into the jpg file.
If you do not first convert the image to sRGB, then when you export the image the rgb values will still be in ProPhoto but the colour space embedded will be sRGB. Then when an application opens the image it will take the rgb values as being in sRGB when in fact they are in ProPhoto. In this case there is high probability of colour problems, especially since the ProPhoto colour space is very much larger than sRGB. Essentially the application would be mapping ProPhoto colours to the much smaller sRGB colour space without actually converting the ProPhoto colours to sRGB. The lesson here is, you must first convert the image in the editor to the colour space you want to embed in the export jpg file.
So I guess what I am asking in a round about way is did you first convert the image in LR from ProPhoto to sRGB before exporting the jpg file with an embedded sRGB color space?
|
|
|
|
Post by Sepiana on Feb 12, 2019 23:35:02 GMT
• The colour mismatch is not like over saturation. The intensity of the colour is about the same. Instead of having an overall yellow tint, the general look is more like kind of sepia, as if it was shifting towards the red in the colour wheel. • . . . it seems that the file was exported in sRGB. I changed that setting and exported in ProPhoto RGB. The same result occurred. No difference between exporting in sRGB or ProPhoto RGB. • I am using LR 6.14, Camera Raw 10.1 and Photos Microsoft 2019.18114.17710.0 • In a private mail, I am sending you access in Dropbox to the file itself that contains the image, and to a screen shot I took showing how it looks to me in Photos, in LR and in PSE&M. I do not know to what extent you will see the colours as I see them.
Fauxtoto, thanks a lot! This will help with our troubleshooting immensely.
I use Lightroom Classic CC (with the just-released Feb update), installed on two computers. This means . . . focused, hands-on troubleshooting multiplied by two.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bailey on Feb 12, 2019 23:42:27 GMT
Hi again Fauxtoto,
Do you see the same colour issue with other photos exported from LR and opened in MS Photos?
|
|
|
|
Post by michelb on Feb 13, 2019 20:20:47 GMT
Fauxtoto, Many thanks for allowing me to get your image and the comparison screenshot.
I'll start with two major points: 1- Contrary to our previous tests supposing a file with a ProPhoto profile, I am seeing exactly what you are seeing. There is a distinct change when seen in Photos and it's questionable that Photos is correctly colour managed.
2 - I have no idea why Photos does not recognize the sRGB profile. Other softwares like FastStone, Irfanview or OnOne do much better. Does Photos try to 'enhance' automatically?
However, we can now get answers about questions which have been raised in this discussion.
- History: The file taken in jpeg sRGB from a prosumer camera has been opened and saved in Lightroom. The Information panel shows the details of the 'raw' section: no significant change has been applied (WB, tone curves...). The file has been exported with the sRGB profile choice. Note that the raw settings in that information panel are there only for historical info, they are not to be applied by an Adobe software.
<crs:HasSettings>True</crs:HasSettings>
<crs:HasCrop>False</crs:HasCrop>
<crs:AlreadyApplied>True</crs:AlreadyApplied> External softwares ignore the raw section. If opened in LR/ACR the settings are also ignored in this case. If "Already applied" was false, that would mean that LR/ACR would take the edits into account (the settings would not be 'baked in' the RGB numbers). That would happen for jpegs only edited in ACR/LR without exporting ('Done' in PSE) in a parametric/non destructive workflow.
- Colour properties: The image is a nearly monochrome one in golden tones which fits easily even on a narrow gamut like sRGB. No risk of 'out of gamut' parts.
I have tried the irrealistic hypothesis of the file having had its profile removed then converted to sRGB. There is a very slight color change after removing, no further change when converting to sRGB. Suggestion: the display profile may play a part here. How to define the color shift with Photos? There, I maintain that it can be the result of increasing saturation by 16-18%. It's also possible to get the same result by altering very slightly the WB or the tint. If we compare the results by displaying the H,S,L values of a layer with Blur>>average, we get practically the same values from both methods and the same look than the Photos result.
So much for today!
|
|
|
|
Post by Sepiana on Feb 14, 2019 5:16:22 GMT
Fauxtoto , my apologies! I am a bit behind with the troubleshooting. (Real life sometimes gets in the way.) But, from what I can see, Michel is on the ball. I'll start with two major points: 1- Contrary to our previous tests supposing a file with a ProPhoto profile, I am seeing exactly what you are seeing. There is a distinct change when seen in Photos and it's questionable that Photos is correctly colour managed.
2 - I have no idea why Photos does not recognize the sRGB profile. Other softwares like FastStone, Irfanview or OnOne do much better. Does Photos try to 'enhance' automatically?
1 - I’m also seeing the same thing. There is indeed some color shifting in Photos.
2 - I did some checking around and learnt that Photos does have an Auto-enhance feature.
Source: www.windowscentral.com/how-disable-auto-enhance-photos-windows-10
My suggestion would be to test this variable; I think it is worth doing so. Here is my idea:
- Disable Photos Auto-enhance.
- Take the "Emerging" image through the Lightroom > Photos export process again.
- Use both the ProPhoto and the sRGB Lightroom options.
|
|
Fauxtoto
Established Forum Member
Quebec, Canada
Posts: 440
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
|
Post by Fauxtoto on Feb 14, 2019 16:42:32 GMT
did you first convert the image in LR from ProPhoto to sRGB before exporting the jpg file with an embedded sRGB color space? Nope.To my knowledge, I did nothing of the sort. All I did, by using as usual the most standard settings and processes, is that I simply edited the image in LR and, afterwards, I opened the edited image in LR and Photos. Do you see the same colour issue with other photos exported from LR and opened in MS Photos? I have not checked systematically and I am not competent to perform technical tests. Except for this specific image, I have never noticed any significant problem with the colours in Photos. I never paid serious attention since I only use Photos to browse. My suggestion would be to test this variable; I think it is worth doing so. Here is my idea:
- Disable Photos Auto-enhance.
Unfortunately, it seems that "Disable Photos Auto-Enhance" function is no longer available in the Settings menu of the recent version of Photos I have. ****** It seems we have done everything we could to find an explanation to the mismatch of the colours observed between LR and Photos, and that maybe we should now conclude this thread. One can always reopen it or start a new one if new elements come up. For my part, I conclude that Photos is usually ok, but not in the case of this specific image. Why? I do not know. I suppose, as suggested by michelb and Sepiana that it is because of the way Photos handles the images. Maybe the fact that the image under examination contains a lot of yellow did not help. I can live with this. No big deal. michelb , Sepiana , Bailey , thank you so much for all your help, the thinking and all the testing! I leave the last words to you on this one, if you have anything to add. |
|
