Fauxtoto
Established Forum Member
Quebec, Canada
Posts: 440
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by Fauxtoto on Feb 6, 2019 16:49:30 GMT
Hi,
From Lightroom I exported a picture on my desktop. I then opened the exported picture in the Microsoft Widows 10 Photos software. By comparison, the exported picture looks reddish in Photos while the original picture looks yellow in Lightroom. What is happening? Does that mean that Photos cannot be trusted for the colour rendering?
I tried to export the same original picture at the same long edge, but with the settings at 100% quality and 300 resolution. The result had the same wrong reddish tint when viewed in Photos.
I changed the name of the exported picture and reimported it as is in Lightroom. Then, in Lightroom, both files, the reimported one and the original, looked identical with the same original intended yellow colour.
My screen is not calibrated, but all the viewing was done on the same screen.
My conclusion is that Lightroom did not alter the colours during the exportation process. Still, the exact same file does not show the same colours when viewed in Photos compared to when viewed in Lightroom. How is that possible? I suppose there would also be a difference in the colour rendering between PSE and Photos.
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Post by Sepiana on Feb 6, 2019 17:19:52 GMT
From Lightroom I exported a picture on my desktop. I then opened the exported picture in the Microsoft Widows 10 Photos software. By comparison, the exported picture looks reddish in Photos while the original picture looks yellow in Lightroom. What is happening? Does that mean that Photos cannot be trusted for the colour rendering? . . . My screen is not calibrated, but all the viewing was done on the same screen.
Fauxtoto, a similar problem was posted on the Adobe forums. You may want to check the explanation by Per Berntsen (Adobe Community Professional). Also, F. McLion (Adobe Community Professional) posted a link to The Lightroom Queen's blog which explains how to rule out the monitor profile as the root of the problem. Hopefully your questions will be answered!
Exported photo different from lightroom
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Post by michelb on Feb 6, 2019 21:02:12 GMT
I am sorry to make things still more complicated...  I am currently testing (playing...) with my new smartphone (Samsung S8) which has the ability to output superb DNG raw files. In my tests, I also tested the advantages of Photoshop or LR to work in the wide color gamut of ProPhoto compared with aRGB and sRGB. The DNG was saved from Photoshop with the Prophoto profile.
Elements recognizes the ProPhoto mode and displays it correctly, as expected.
But also does Windows Photos! (Other browsers and even FastStone viewer can't). So, my guess is that Photos has been updated since the 2016 link given by Sepiana.
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Post by Sepiana on Feb 6, 2019 21:32:38 GMT
In my tests, I also tested the advantages of Photoshop or LR to work in the wide color gamut of ProPhoto compared with aRGB and sRGB. The DNG was saved from Photoshop with the Prophoto profile.
Elements recognizes the ProPhoto mode and displays it correctly, as expected.
But also does Windows Photos! (Other browsers and even FastStone viewer can't).
Michel, quite a coincidence! I have just finished doing a similar testing using Raw files, Prophoto RGB.
Lightroom > Photoshop CC Lightroom > PSE 2019 Lightroom > Windows 10 Photos
In all instances, the images were displayed correctly.
That's my guess too.
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Post by Bailey on Feb 6, 2019 22:04:20 GMT
Hi Fauxtoto,
Are you embedding your screen's colour space into your exported image file?
Your screen is uncalibrated so is most likely using the sRGB colour space and profile by default. But since your screen is uncalibrated the colours might not display with 100% accuracy.
The way colour management works generally is that first the colours in the exported file are mapped to their true colour in device independent colour space, most likely Lab, using the embedded profile in the exported file. The target device/app then converts the Lab bcolours to the equivalent colour in its colour space according to the profile and colour space assigned to the target devicr/app.
If your exported image file does not contain a profile then assumptions are made during the colour conversion to the target device most likely resulting in unpredictable results and colour mismatch.
So the first thing I would suggest is check in your Windows 10 settings what is your screen's default colour space and secondly confirm whether it is actually embedded into your exported file.
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Post by Sepiana on Feb 6, 2019 22:05:49 GMT
In my tests, I also tested the advantages of Photoshop or LR to work in the wide color gamut of ProPhoto compared with aRGB and sRGB. The DNG was saved from Photoshop with the Prophoto profile.
Elements recognizes the ProPhoto mode and displays it correctly, as expected.
But also does Windows Photos! (Other browsers and even FastStone viewer can't).
Michel, quite a coincidence! I have just finished doing a similar testing using Raw files, Prophoto RGB.
Lightroom > Photoshop CC Lightroom > PSE 2019 Lightroom > Windows 10 Photos
In all instances, the images were displayed correctly.
Michel, hope I am not adding too much to the mix. Out of curiosity, I did the same testing on my other computer (Windows 7, Photo Viewer). I got identical results; the images were displayed correctly.
What is your opinion? Do you think it is worth taking the troubleshooting into this direction? As suggested on the Adobe forums?
www.lightroomqueen.com/how-do-i-change-my-monitor-profile-to-check-whether-its-corrupted/
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Post by Bailey on Feb 6, 2019 22:11:53 GMT
Hi michelb and sepiana, The results you posted are exactly what should happen. If the op has not embedded his screens default profile into the exported image then the probability of colour mismatch is high. If he has then there is something else going on (corrupted or incorrect screen profile etc etc).
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Post by Sepiana on Feb 6, 2019 22:47:00 GMT
My conclusion is that Lightroom did not alter the colours during the exportation process. Still, the exact same file does not show the same colours when viewed in Photos compared to when viewed in Lightroom. How is that possible? I suppose there would also be a difference in the colour rendering between PSE and Photos.
Fauxtoto, I am not sure this has a bearing on the problem you describe but I am going to bring it up. It may help with the troubleshooting. Also, it may benefit Lightroom users (particularly new ones).
I remember you mentioned in another thread that, when you go Lightroom > PSE, you use the PSD file format. What do you use for the Color Space?
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Post by Bailey on Feb 6, 2019 22:58:00 GMT
What do you use for the Color Space? Thank you for asking the same question I posted earlier. So the first thing I would suggest is check in your Windows 10 settings what is your screen's default colour space and secondly confirm whether it is actually embedded into your exported file. |
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Post by michelb on Feb 7, 2019 7:23:36 GMT
What do you use for the Color Space? Thank you for asking the same question I posted earlier. So the first thing I would suggest is check in your Windows 10 settings what is your screen's default colour space and secondly confirm whether it is actually embedded into your exported file. Bailey, No, not the same question.
Sepiana question is most probably on the right track.
Here is why. You asked two different questions. 1 - Windows 10 colour space settings. Good question, but totally different. That won't probably help much, except confirm that the screen is not calibrated. 2 - The question about "embedding" the display profile is not the same as the question of which profile is used by LR to convert (recalculate all the pixels values from the internal ProPhoto space to another one). Generally (and for good reasons) LR users don't select the display profile, but one of the three other standard modes. In those choices, a conversion takes place, the resulting file is tagged with the colour mode and no embedding takes place. If you choose display profile (I have already noted that it's your debatable choice) LR has to tag the file and embed the profile without pixel conversion. Only with that display profile choice there is question about embedding or not. So, your question comes after Sepiana's question of how LR is set. If your belief that Fauxtoto has chosen display profile, new questions do arise: - does LR automatically embed the display profile? - is the embedded profile kept in the various steps in his workflow? - is Photos able to take an embedded profile into account?
Our common experience with Sepiana is that Photos recognizes the ProPhoto colour space. That's a significant difference with the enlightening discussion she linked to. Now, we are waiting for more details by Fauxtoto. We also can try to reproduce the same behaviour with the different possible LR options.
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Post by Bailey on Feb 7, 2019 7:52:38 GMT
It is essentially the same question because for best results the colour space of the application should be the same as the screens colour space.
I use a custom calibrated screen profile and set PSE to use it as well. So my screen colour space and PSE's working colour space are the same.
If you set your screen profile to sRGB (in the case for uncailbrated screens) and then use a wider gamut profile (Adobe RGB or ProPhoto) for the application then out of gamut colours are going to be rendered on the screen to whatever the screen's default Rendering Intent is set to anyway.
When outputting an image file you should always embed the colour space and profile used to create the image so that the image file can be reproduced as accurately as possible according to the colour space and profile of the destination device/app as I described in my earlier post. PSE gives users the option to embed profiles when saving files.
RGB colours are device dependent and so if colour management/accuracy is important, an exported image file must have the image's colour space and profile embedded in it.
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Post by Sepiana on Feb 7, 2019 8:07:31 GMT
Our common experience with Sepiana is that Photos recognizes the ProPhoto colour space. That's a significant difference with the enlightening discussion she linked to. Now, we are waiting for more details by Fauxtoto. We also can try to reproduce the same behaviour with the different possible LR options.
Michel, that's what I am waiting for. You and I are using ProPhoto color space and are not encountering the problem Fauxtoto describes. Once we get more details from him, we can proceed with testing the other LR options. It would be interesting (enlightening) if other Lightroom users joined this discussion and shared their experiences. Do they have the same problem? Do they use ProPhoto color space? If not, what do they use? |
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Post by Bailey on Feb 7, 2019 9:49:13 GMT
You and I are using ProPhoto color space and are not encountering the problem Fauxtoto describes. The ProPhoto colour space you are referring to is the colour space assigned to your LR application. I'm sure it would also help Fauxtoto and other LR users if you post what colour space you and michelb have assigned to your screen as well. I suspect both your screen's colour space gamut will be smaller than ProPhoto.
It will be interesting to see if Fauxtoto's LR and screen colour space combination matches either your or michelb's LR and screen colour space combination.
Also, are you and michelb using properly calibrated screens? |
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Fauxtoto
Established Forum Member
Quebec, Canada
Posts: 440
Open to constructive criticism of photos: Yes
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Post by Fauxtoto on Feb 7, 2019 14:49:28 GMT
Thank you michelb , Sepiana , Bailey . I must apologize since my original post might have been ambiguous. To be clear, I must add the following : - The original file was a jpg. It has been edited as a jpeg, exclusively in Lightroom. It has not been sent to PSE nor in PS; it has never been converted to another format such as PSD or TIFF. The original jpg was 2592 x 1944 px. As part of the editing in Lightroom, it was cropped to 2194 x 994 px. - The colours of the edited original as I see them in Lightroom are perfect. In this case the yellow in the picture reflects perfectly the intention of the editing performed in Lightroom. - In view of sending the picture to a Web site (PSE&M, a very good site that I recommend to all my friends!), I decided that I would have to resize the picture. In the course of the exportation to my desktop from Lightroom, I opted for the following settings : long edge 1200, 80% quality, 240 resolution. - I then opened the exported file in Windows 10 Photos software. This is where the unwanted wrong reddish tint appeared. As a consequence I tried the following: o From Lightroom, I performed a new exportation, this time with the following settings : long edge 1200, quality 100% and resolution 300. I opened this second exported file in in Windows 10 Photos software. The same unwanted wrong reddish tint appeared again. o I renamed the first exported file and imported it in Lightroom with its new name. I opened this renamed file in Lightroom and the colour was perfect again. This means that one unique file containing the exact same data viewed in Lightroom shows the right colours and viewed in Windows 10 Photos shows wrong colours. By pure deduction, and technical ignorance, I come to the following conclusions: - The problem is not that Lightroom and Windows 10 Photos show wrong colours. Only Windows 10 Photos shows wrong colours. - The problem is not that two different files would contain different data, or that some data would not be embedded in one of two different files. The difference in the colours depends on which of two different programs is used to view a unique and same file, Lightroom or Windows 10 Photos. Sepiana, I will come back soon with my color space screens in Lightroom and Windows. Thanks again all. Sorry if I mislead your friendly efforts. |
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Post by Bailey on Feb 7, 2019 22:21:05 GMT
Thank you michelb , Sepiana , Bailey . I must apologize since my original post might have been ambiguous. ... No problem Fauxtoto  It was perfectly clear to me you were exporting to a jpg because it is very unlikely MS Photos can open proprietary formats like PSD. From your description of colour mismatch between what you see in LR and Photos, that is exactly what can be expected if one or more of the following is the case. 1. The colour space used to create the image is not embedded in the exported jpg. 2. MS Photos is not colour managed. I would be very surprised if it wasn't. 3. Corrupted colour space/profile files. 4. Other factors but there is not enough information in your posts for me to determine what they might be. As I posted earlier, the first thing I would eliminate as a cause is a missing embedded profile in your exported jpg. Have you embedded the correct colour space/profile into your jpg?Regardless of which colour space you choose in LR, your image colours will be mapped onto your screen's default colour space....maybe sRGB since your screen is uncalibrated. Since michelb and sepiana both say they have no problem using ProPhoto colour space in LR an interesting comparison for trouble-shooting would be your 3 LR and screen colour space/profile combinations that you each use. For example, are all 3 of you using ProPhoto in LR and sRGB for your screen?If you are using the same combination of colour spaces, whatever it may be, then the likely culprit would be a corrupted colour profile on Fauxtoto's computer. I hope the 3 of you manage to resolve this issue without going around in circles too much. Good luck |
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